Shurikens and Sneak Damage

[reapersaurus]

if you are trying out ideas for shuriken min/max, see the Sultans of Smack Shuriken Smackdown.
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=150524#post150524

Asi understand it, Caliban's right about being able to throw 3 and if any of them hit, it applies sneak attack damage.
But sneak attack is for sissies.
Divine Might is the way to go.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The first shuriken thrown carries all the bonuses for favored enemy, sneak attack or point blank shot (and none of them give STR bonuses, btw). Everything else would be munchkinism: usually you have one chance per attack for your sneak attack, not three. It would destroy the balance. Some of the math geniuses around please come up with an example please: how the chances are for a rogue with X stats to hit a foe with Y stats, and what chances the same rogue has to hit with one attack out of three, and what stats Z a rogue (or fighter) would need to have the same probability. I can tell you beforehand that those simple, cheap throwing stars and arrows and whatnot would be in fact as powerful as some real nice magic item or feat if you allow that the first hit is the sneak attack, not the first attack!
They would in fact be more powerful in conjunction with sneak attack than the triple-throw special quality of the ELH is, and that one's got +6 Market price bonus......

There's also the issue of consistancy: You would have three possibilities to hit home with your sneak attack. You would decide when to use your sneak attack AFTER you made the attack was made and you already knew the outcome. It doesn't work that way in other similar abilities. Look at the stunning fist description: it says that you must "Declare that you are using the feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a missed attack roll ruins the attempt)". You don't strike, hit, and say "NOW I use my stunning fist. It's the same here: you say before you make the attack roll whether this is your sneak attack attempt! As they are the same, just take the fist.
If you allow the first to hit to have sneak attack damage, you would practically allow three attempts to sneak attack the enemy. But it's only one per attack, and if it misses, the attempt is wasted! What if you aimed carefully the first time you threw, but you missed because he shiftet just a little and the shuriken banged off his armor? The second wouldn't be that accurate, cause he would follow within a split second.

Also, I think that they are thrown in rapid succession. You can aim the first real good, as to hit him where it hurts, but the rest comes quickly after that and without that kind of precision. If you'd throw them at the same time, it would be even worse, as they don't hit exactly the same spot and you have to concentrate on one of it.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

My view was they were thrown at the same time in a shotgun pattern...

\ l /

Hence only one is accurate to any degree, the other two are just in the same flight path. Otherwise it's going to look like the old Shinobi video game when you get someone with multiple attacks, especially the Monk.

Otherwise I agree completely.

 

[trimeulose]

just give everyone armor of hvy fortification and dont even worry about it . But seriously, I you take a monster that requires say a sixteen to hit and then applied basic math to it.

(lets say that they flank together)

1st level ftr (human): (str 16, dex,con,wis,int,cha 13)

feats (wep foc, dodge, mobility )

bab +5 Damage 2d6 +4 crit 19d-20x2


rogue (halfling): (dex 16, others 13)

feats (wep foc)
bab +6/+6/+6 damage 1 x2 + 1d6 sneak attack

Against AC 16

so the ftr who has 50% chance to hit and a 5% to crit hit, has a mean damage of 6.6 per round

the rogue has a 55% chance to hit and a 2.5% to crit with three attacks does 7.8375 damage in one round

level 4 ftr
feats (dodge, wep foc, mobility, Spring attack, wep spec)

bab +8 damage 2d6 + 6 19-20x2

level 4 rog
feats (wep foc, dodge)

bab +8/+8/+8 damage 1 x2 +2d6

against AC 19

Both have 50% chance to hit.

ftr has 5% chance to crit and does mean 7.8 damage a round
rogue has 2.5% chance to crit and does mean 12.225 damage a round

20th level ftr
feats (wep foc, wep spec, dodge, mobility, Sprg atk, expertise, whirlwind atk, power atk, cleave, great cleave, sunder, improved sunder, improved trip, mounted combat, trample, ride-by attack, spirited charge, point blank shot, improved crit)

bab +24/+19/+14/+9
damage 2d6 +6 17-20x2

20th level rogue
feats (wep foc, dodge, mobility, expertise, improved crit, point blank shot, rapid shot)

bab +18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+8/
damage 1 19-20x2 +10d6
against AC 35

big math here so just trust me on this one.
ftr has mean damage of 17.55 a round
rog has mean damage of 60.9 a round

I'm almost sure these figures are off as I did it in about 5 min, but they are kinda close.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Can't flank with ranged weapons, so the halfling has to do better than that to score a sneak attack with every attack. I hope you have taken into account that only the first shuriken per attack can make a sneak attack, the other two lack the precision.

Also, the 2d6+6 doesn't sound right for a Ftr20! At level 20, he will surely have Str 18 at least (after all, he has 5 points to redistribute), + whatever his magic items gave him (The cost of a Belt of Giant Strength +6 should be peanuts for the guy, also, there could be inherent bonuses from wish spells or a manual), and then there's magic weapons, even the standard NPC fighters from DMG have +4 Weapons by then (also not expensive for a 20th-level character).
2d6+18 sounds more like it (+12 from 26 Str, +4 from weapon, +4 Weapon Specialization), crit 17-20/x2.
This also affects his attack bonuses, and with that, his average Damage.
The rogue will also have a magic weapon by then, and greater Dexterity, but at least the damage bonus from the weapon won't affect the average Damage not that much.