D&D 5E Silly/Senseless Rules You Have Found

[SilverfireSage]

Huh? Could you clarify this? It sounds like neither of them can do or explain their job.

A doctor is someone who knows medicine in general. They know anatomy and physiology, they know how everything works with each other, they may know basic remedies on how to fix things wrong with the body. But they don't know how to operate an EKG machine, or an ultrasound, or any specific piece of technology used for diagnosing and applying medicine. An EMT on the other hand, knows how to make splints, how to apply salves, how to do EKGs with specific machines, how to lift and carry people with a gurney, but if you asked them how each of those machines actually works or what their effect on the body is, they won't be able to tell you. (this is a generalization, obviously there are many EMT's that would be able to tell you that)

 

[Kai Wren]

RAW, having the medicine proficiency means you CAN use all applications of the medicine skill without the kit, though. So the analogy doesn't quite work.

It is a clumsy system. I can see what they were trying to do but it may have been better to say that having proficiency in the skill automatically grants proficiency in the associated equipment, perhaps with a minor bonus, whilst the equipment proficiency alone still grants a minor area of competency. But they didn't, and this thread is for pointing out unfortunate rules decisions like that.

 

[SilverfireSage]

RAW, having the medicine proficiency means you CAN use all applications of the medicine skill without the kit, though. So the analogy doesn't quite work.

My apologies, I was confusing it with the herbalism kit, which allows you to make potions of healing. By RAW anyone can use a healer's kit, which seems to be more like a defibrillator than anything else.

To fix my earlier analogy, a doctor (someone with the medicine skill) knows what remedies to apply and how to find them, but not how to make them. The pharmacist (herbalist) knows how to make those things, but couldn't tell you anything about the disease in particular.

It is a clumsy system. I can see what they were trying to do but it may have been better to say that having proficiency in the skill automatically grants proficiency in the associated equipment, perhaps with a minor bonus, whilst the equipment proficiency alone still grants a minor area of competency. But they didn't, and this thread is for pointing out unfortunate rules decisions like that.

That wouldn't really make sense with what they're trying to do though. How about a different example, using the rules how they are. A person who is proficient in Sleight of Hand is able to lift things from people's pockets, conceal something on themselves, or secretly stash something somewhere too quick for someone to follow. However, if you are rogue, you are likely to need something else, which is proficiency in thieves tools. With these, you add your proficiency bonus to ability checks to disarm traps and open locks, making you more likely to be successful in such checks. If I understand their methodology correctly, this is to separate areas of general knowledge and ability (skills) with specific knowledge and training (tools). In my mind, this is used exclusively for roleplaying, which is why I don't find it much of a problem.

 

[Kai Wren]

Thieves tools are pretty much the only area where the functioning of the kit isn't already subsumed into a skill, though. There is no 'open lock' skill, only thieves tools. Compare/contrast Knowledge/nature or survival and herbalism, athletics and climbing kits... etc etc etc. There's plenty of areas where having the skill means that actually knowing how to use the kit as well is utterly pointless.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I'm confused, how is this a problem?

Its a problem because being in natural darkness should still let you see creatures and objects brightly lit by torch and other light sources.

 

[SilverfireSage]

Thieves tools are pretty much the only area where the functioning of the kit isn't already subsumed into a skill, though. There is no 'open lock' skill, only thieves tools. Compare/contrast Knowledge/nature or survival and herbalism, athletics and climbing kits... etc etc etc. There's plenty of areas where having the skill means that actually knowing how to use the kit as well is utterly pointless.

You can't make potions of healing with Nature or survival. There is no "climbing kit" so not sure where you're getting that. In fact, all of the tools that you get to add your proficiency bonus to are not subsumed in a skill. Deception doesn't cover disguises or forgeries, only actions you can do with your body and words. Performance doesn't include instruments, only what you can do with your actions and voice.

In fact, that seems to be the great divider between skills and tools, and it's pretty much already in the dichotomy of the words: tools require training with another object (a tool), whereas skills are what you can do all on your own. Read underneath tools again. It states, "A tool helps you to do something you couldn't otherwise do, such as craft or repair an item, forge a document, or pick a lock." You flat out cannot do any of the things listed under tools without having the tool in question. That seems to be a pretty good divider to me.

 

[SilverfireSage]

Its a problem because being in natural darkness should still let you see creatures and objects brightly lit by torch and other light sources.

I can see where that might be confusing RAW, but I feel like if creatures are brightly lit by a torch, you're in dim light, not darkness. But you're correct, they don't make any distinction between a person inside darkness looking at someone with a bright light, and someone within total darkness with no lights at all. Perhaps they're hoping logic will dictate that?

 

[Zaran]

I think it's silly that I can have 20 9th Level spells in my spellbook but can only know 6 cantrips.

I think it's silly that a wizard can't use Arcane Reserves on high level spells. Both of these are restrictions that I do not think need to be there.

 

[Lerysh]

You can't make potions of healing with Nature or survival. There is no "climbing kit" so not sure where you're getting that. In fact, all of the tools that you get to add your proficiency bonus to are not subsumed in a skill. Deception doesn't cover disguises or forgeries, only actions you can do with your body and words. Performance doesn't include instruments, only what you can do with your actions and voice.

In fact, that seems to be the great divider between skills and tools, and it's pretty much already in the dichotomy of the words: tools require training with another object (a tool), whereas skills are what you can do all on your own. Read underneath tools again. It states, "A tool helps you to do something you couldn't otherwise do, such as craft or repair an item, forge a document, or pick a lock." You flat out cannot do any of the things listed under tools without having the tool in question. That seems to be a pretty good divider to me.

There is a Climber's Kit in the adventure gear, along with a Healer's Kit. Neither of them are tools though.

If the Climber's Kit WAS a tool, it would be the difference between belay/harness climbing and free climbing. Someone skilled in Athletics with a high strength can probably climb that cliff unassisted. Someone with only a Climber's Kit proficiency and moderate strength would need to climb and set their tools to progress, using pitons and rope to secure their climb.

The confusion here is coming mostly because some tools are called kits and some kits are not tools. Basically, if it's not listed on page 154 of the PHB it's not a tool.

 

[SilverfireSage]

There is a Climber's Kit in the adventure gear, along with a Healer's Kit. Neither of them are tools though.

If the Climber's Kit WAS a tool, it would be the difference between belay/harness climbing and free climbing. Someone skilled in Athletics with a high strength can probably climb that cliff unassisted. Someone with only a Climber's Kit proficiency and moderate strength would need to climb and set their tools to progress, using pitons and rope to secure their climb.

The confusion here is coming mostly because some tools are called kits and some kits are not tools. Basically, if it's not listed on page 154 of the PHB it's not a tool.

Kits are what people use when they don't have proficiency in certain checks. You can climb without a climbers kit and heal without a healer's kit, they just make it easier for someone without the skill. They even make the distinction in the name of the object itself, kit vs tool. I'd say they did a pretty good job about all of that.