D&D 5E Silvery Barbs and Fey Touched

ECMO3

Hero
Much of the disussion on silvery barbs has centered around the spell being or not being OP. And while I am firmly in the second camp, I do think this makes Fey Touched, which is arguably the best feat in the game even better.

Fey touched was already awesome, hands down the best casting feat with a great 2nd level spell and good 1st level options like Hex, Heroism and Bless. However you can't get shield, Shield of Faith or absorb elements which are probably the spells you want the most if you are a non-caster or don't have them on your spell list.

Silvery Barbs though is an enchantment, and it is available with Fey touched and offers the kind of defensive spell that the original feat is lacking.

I think this is a significant boost to the Fey Touched feat.
 

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Of course, Fey Touched also granted Bless, which is another one of the better spells as well. The increase isn't quite as huge, but does grant a great non-concentration option as well.
 

For a non caster? No, Silvery Barbs sucks if you can only cast it once per day. You are much better off picking something like Hunter's Mark - at least you can get an hour's use out of it.

Silvery Barbs is an excellent choice to pick up with Fey Touched if it's not on your class list and you have 1st level spell slots to burn.
 

Depends. HM is a damage increase where barb is a catchall reaction that can be universally applied. Even at once per day it's a strong contender for fey touched which also grants mobility and a stat bump.

Changing the school that it's in it's probably the easiest way to bring the spell back in line. Mostly for AM sorcerer.
 

Even at once per day it's a strong contender for fey touched which also grants mobility and a stat bump.
No it aint. No one disputes Fey Touched would be good even without the 1st level spell, but even if you only have one encounter per day an ability that lets you maybe avoid just one attack is garbage, and if you save it for when an enemy makes a saving throw against a team mate's critical spell you will see lots of days go by when it isn't used at all.

Silvery Barbs is only good if you can spam it, or have suck-or-save spells you want to boost.

It's extra-bad for rogues, when it's competing with Uncanny Dodge for your reaction.
 
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No it aint. No one disputes Fey Touched would be good even without the 1st level spell, but even if you only have one encounter per day an ability that lets you maybe avoid just one attack is garbage, and if you save it for when an enemy makes a saving throw against a team mate's critical spell you will see lots of days go by when it isn't used at all.

Silvery Barbs is only good if you can spam it, or have suck-or-save spells you want to boost.

It's extra-bad for rogues, when it's competing with Uncanny Dodge for your reaction.
Doesn't it also work for ability checks?
 



Doesn't Guidance only give you a boost to the ability checks of you and your allies? You can't use it to potentially scupper a successful Perception, Insight or other ability check that someone else made?
You could, but it's hardly earth-shatteringly good, is it? It's bardy-flavoured, and it's a bard spell in the first place.
 



jgsugden

Legend
Concentration is important for non-casters in that they often tend to be the types to be in combat where it can be broken. Also, importantly, sacrificing your reaction as a melee PC can be very costly. When deciding whether it is good for a class, you have to consider the full opportunity costof casting it, and whether someone else in the party is better situated to cast it.

Silvery Barbs is what we think it is: You'll use it once per LR to try to turn a successful save, attack or (occasionally) abiliy role that matters into a miss - and then give an ally advantage.

You can negate a crit with it: most likely, turning that crit into a miss or non-crit most of the time. Sometimes, however, it will do nothing beneficial for you in terms of the opponent roll - rarely in the crit circumstance but more often in other circumstances.

Then, it will give an ally a boost on their next roll. They don't get to choose the roll - it is the next d20 roll they make.

You can get creative and do thinks like giving a reroll to their perception to see your party assassin and then give the assin advantage on their next roll (which would be initiative). However, about half the time, that will not make any difference for you in the roll, although it can impact how you plan for the results of the roll. So far, my favorite use of this was by a Cleric of Order when a melee ally double moved against a BBEG spellcaster and attacked them to break concentration. The spellcaster was hit, and made their concentration check - we forced an SB reroll, which they made again, and then the melee ally was given advantage on their next roll - which was the free attack granted by the Cleric of Order, who rolled a crit, which dealt 40 damage and forced a failure to that subsequent concentration check.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
Concentration is important for non-casters in that they often tend to be the types to be in combat where it can be broken.

No, it's not important because non-casters have very few abilities that require concentration. The fact that it can be broken easier is a different thing altogether, on top of which you are assuming that non-casters are more in combat, which is not only false (all characters are usually in combat at the same time), but also probably assumes non-casters to be melee, which is not necessarily true either (hint: archer).

Also, importantly, sacrificing your reaction as a melee PC can be very costly.

We were speaking about Guidance, so how is that relevant ?
 

ECMO3

Hero
For a non caster? No, Silvery Barbs sucks if you can only cast it once per day. You are much better off picking something like Hunter's Mark - at least you can get an hour's use out of it.
Silvery Barbs can almost alwyays stop a critical hit, which is huge for a martial. I think this is how you use it as a fighter or ranger, not against a normal attack (unless that attack is crippling like being swallowed or something).

I like Hex a lot better than HM and it is a really good pick up with FT with a ton of use both in and out of combat. It is the most common spell I get with FT, but without slots you are usually looking a 10-15 damage or so on a melee character before you lose concentration. Maybe more on a Bladesinger or Rogue that is not going to get hit as much.
 
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ECMO3

Hero
but even if you only have one encounter per day an ability that lets you maybe avoid just one attack is garbage,
As a martial, I don't think you use it to avoid an attack. I think you use it to avoid a crit specifically, or to avoid being swallowed or such, which is a much bigger deal.
 

ECMO3

Hero
It's extra-bad for rogues, when it's competing with Uncanny Dodge for your reaction.
As a once a day spell I don't see it competing. In cases where UD is better, it will be clearly better.

On an mulciclassed caster Rogue that has a lot of slots and can use it largely at will then sure but once a day I don't see much competition here.
 
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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
For a non caster? No, Silvery Barbs sucks if you can only cast it once per day. You are much better off picking something like Hunter's Mark - at least you can get an hour's use out of it.

Silvery Barbs is an excellent choice to pick up with Fey Touched if it's not on your class list and you have 1st level spell slots to burn.
but you can also use it, if you aren't a spellcaster, to help a spellcaster land that critical spell. It won't happen often - maybe once a day ;) - but it can be clutch.
 

jgsugden

Legend
No, it's not important because non-casters have very few abilities that require concentration. The fact that it can be broken easier is a different thing altogether, on top of which you are assuming that non-casters are more in combat, which is not only false (all characters are usually in combat at the same time), but also probably assumes non-casters to be melee, which is not necessarily true either (hint: archer).
Please read my statement again and consider it. We have been discussing the spell overall - not just limiting it to whether non-casters have concentration abilities. That would be an odd limitation for an entire conversation about spellcasting. Silvery barbs not requiring concentration has plusses for otherwise non-spellcasters, but there is still a lot of benefit to a non-spellcaster not feeling limited on their other abilities when they use a concentration spell. It goes both ways.

Further, I said that non-spellcasters tend to be in combat where it can be broken. I did not say it was an abolsute tule. Non-casters have a stronger tendency to be in melee. There are exceptions, like the archer you mentioned, but if I said there was a party consisting of a rogue, a barbarian, a fighter and a wizard (who has this spell on their spell list) and I said that one was in the backrow while the others were in the front row .... reasonable people would pretty unifromally make the same assumption about which was the back row PC.
We were speaking about Guidance, so how is that relevant ?
We're talking about casting Silvery Barbs, which requires your reaction. If you use it for SB, you can't use it for opportunity attacks (which impacts both potential damage and enemy willingness to disengage), uncanny dodge, and a plethora of other abilities. Using your reaction is not a non-issue.
 

Stalker0

Legend
For those curious, here is how a once per Silvery Barbs (negating a crit) would stack up against a permanent +1 AC (aka I took the feat to give me a fighting style).

Sake of argument, all attacks do the same amount of damage, and lets make a crit worth about 1.85 normal damage (as its not a true doubling) Lets also assume Silvery barbs turns a crit into a miss about 50% of the time, a regular hit 45% of the time, and a new crit 5% of the time.

This means silvery barbs effectively negates "1.3 attacks" worth of damage per day. To provide the same amount of protection, the character would need to be attacked by 26+ attacks in one day.


So there is a "ballpark" estimate of how effective the ability is as compared to regular AC boosts.
 

ECMO3

Hero
but you can also use it, if you aren't a spellcaster, to help a spellcaster land that critical spell. It won't happen often - maybe once a day ;) - but it can be clutch.
I am probably not using it for that as a martial unless it is like the last combat of the day or against the BBEG or it is a pivotal spell.

If I am am a non-caster it is a one shot so I am going to use it when I KNOW it will work, or when being hit is catastrophic. That is going to be on a crippling attack or critical hit. Instead of using it on myself, I might use it when the Wizard gets bitten in half by the Dragon, but I am probbably not using it to make the Dragon reroll a save.
 

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