D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?

[ECMO3]

Once that's resolved If the save was still failed THEN the creature can decide if it wants to use legendary resistance. Silvery Barbs absolutely does not get you two bites at this apple!

I think the arguement is it gets you one bite when you would normally have 0. There is a fallacy in that though because it presumes the reroll fails. In actuality it gets you a chance at one bite when you would otherwise have 0.

 

[abirdcall]

No it isn't. You resolve whether the save was made or failed first, including silvery barbs. "The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll."

Once that's resolved If the save was still failed THEN the creature can decide if it wants to use legendary resistance. Silvery Barbs absolutely does not get you two bites at this apple!

I don't know what you're saying here.

There is some sort of major disconnect.

Maybe you're assuming I'm saying things I'm not?

 

[billd91]

No it isn't. You resolve whether the save was made or failed first, including silvery barbs. "The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll."

Once that's resolved If the save was still failed THEN the creature can decide if it wants to use legendary resistance. Silvery Barbs absolutely does not get you two bites at this apple!

That’s not clear. And here’s the scenario:

1. Wizard throws save or suck spell at creature with legendary saves.
2. Target rolls poorly so uses legendary save and, thus, achieves a successful saving throw.
3. Successful save is condition for silvery barbs which forces target to save again.
4. Poor roll causes target to use legendary save a second time.

(now here’s hoping the party’s bard doesn’t also have silvery barbs)

Does the legendary save count as a successful save when it comes to triggering silver barbs? If yes, then you sure can get 2 bites at the apple.

 

[Stalker0]

Certainly not worthy of the title of best spell in the game!?!

For its level... I'm having trouble of thinking of a better 1st level spell than this.

The power of added saves, the versatility, and the cheap cost of a 1st level spell. I don't know why a wizard wouldn't use this spell whenever the opportunity arises past let's say 5 or 6th level.

Shield can certainly save the wizard from taking a lot of damage, but this spell can completely change the course of a battle by ensuring a key spell hits. That is literally what the wizard does, this spell just makes them that much better at it.

And that's before we consider the advantage it gives one of your allies.

 

[abirdcall]

Edit: so I think I get what your saying now, but still disagree. Yes, you only cast silvery Barbs on a success so legendary resistance wouldn't have been used and now it might be, that's decent but I still don't think it's broken.

How would you feel about this change to Banishment: "If a creature makes their saving throw you may spend a 1st level spell slot and your Reaction to force the creature to make a new save."

That change to Banishment would make it overpowered.

And Silvery Barbs is much much stronger than that.

Again, a 9th level Wizard can cast it 7 times using 1st and 2nd level spell slots. Up to 4 more times if using Arcane Recovery to recover those slots.

Unlike Heightened Spell, these don't just apply to their own spells. They apply to the entire party. Once per round for just about the entire Adventuring Day the Wizard can force creatures to save again against whatever big effects they or their allies have.

It is extremely strong against high CR creatures and yes, will speed up burning through Legendary Resistance.

It also works on Save Ends spells or effects. If a creature makes the save at the end of their turn then Silvery Barbs them.

And then on top of all of that they're giving their allies Advantage whenever they do it. Advantage that can be used for Saving Throws which are very important for surviving deadly abilities. You can even give it to yourself in case you need to make a Concentration check to keep up that spell you've locked the creature down with.

Imagine having 2 characters who can cast this spell in a party.

 

[abirdcall]

That’s not clear. And here’s the scenario:

1. Wizard throws save or suck spell at creature with legendary saves.
2. Target rolls poorly so uses legendary save and, thus, achieves a successful saving throw.
3. Successful save is condition for silvery barbs which forces target to save again.
4. Poor roll causes target to use legendary save a second time.

(now here’s hoping the party’s bard doesn’t also have silvery barbs)

Does the legendary save count as a successful save when it comes to triggering silver barbs? If yes, then you sure can get 2 bites at the apple.

You make the creature use the lower roll but because the result of the roll doesn't matter Legendary Resistance only needs to be used once.

 

[billd91]

Imagine having 2 characters who can cast this spell in a party.

and do so from first level.

 

[billd91]

You make the creature use the lower roll but because the result of the roll doesn't matter Legendary Resistance only needs to be used once.

Maybe? That’s one interpretation and probably a preferred one, but it is subject to how someone chooses to read it. It’s not exactly unambiguous.

 

[abirdcall]

Maybe? That’s one interpretation and probably a preferred one, but it is subject to how someone chooses to read it. It’s not exactly unambiguous.

The key part (unless I'm not reading the correct wording) is that Barbs does not force the creature to save again. Only to roll the die again.

If Barbs said "repeat the saving throw" I'd be with you.

 

[NotAYakk]

No it is not, because the first roll has to succeed in order to use it. This is a statistical fallacy. Once the first roll is already rolled (and suceeded) it is history and has no affect on future rolls, including the roll you get from barbs.

To illustrate this if you need an 11 your chance of success is 50%. If you roll 2 dice and take the lowest the chance of success is 25%. In this case it is a +5 like you said.

HOWEVER if you roll 1 dice and that dice is already 11 or above, the chance of rolling below an 11 with the second dice is 50%, the exact same as before the first die was rolled.

Now if the spell were different and if you cast the spell before the first roll and it gave the roller disadvantage, then it would be like you said. It would actually be a more powerful against an easy to hit number if this was the case.

I am comparing "PC with Barbs" to "PC without Barbs", not "Use Barbs" to "Not use Barbs".

A PC with barbs lands spells 75% of the time that a PC without landed 50% of the time at a cost of 0.5 level 1 slots and reactions/cast.

When you cast and decide if you want to use Barbs, that PC has a 50% chance to turn the successful save into a failure.

The two numbers - 75% and 50% - are both true, because they are measuring different things.

I agree on the crits, not on the legendaries. Most monsters with legendary resistances usually also have high saves, making this less useful when the monster has already suceeded.

No, you use it when the monster succeeds.

Suppose you find a weak save and a spell the monster won't want to land. As an example, synaptic static and an int save.

The monster has a 2/3 chance to save. So you throw out static; 1/3 of the time a LR is used, and you are done. 2/3 of the time, you barb and force a reroll; again, 1/3 of that leads to a LR use.

You go from 1 action 1 5th slot for 1/3 LR removed, to 1 action 1 5th 1/3 reaction 1/3 1st for 5/9 LR removed. That is 1.67x as many LR removed.

What more, if there is more than one spellcaster (or non spellcaster save inducer), and your barb wasn't needed, you can use it in their spells/effects.

While 5/9 LR per turn isn't a lot, 2 spellcasters are now stripping 10/9 per round instead of 2/3, and using 1st level slots instead of high level ones (how many 1st level slots produce effects a mosnter eould burn a LR on?). So around turn 3, at an average of 30/9 LR burnt, the monster starts risking using up their last LR on each effect. So you can start landing debuffs.

The same 2 spellcasters would have to go 4.5 rounds of 9 high level spells, instead of 3 rounds of 6 high level spells, without Barbs.

And if you find a weaker save than 2/3, Barbs makes LR go down even faster. A 50/50 save without Barbs takes 6 caster-rounds to beat 3LR; with Barbs it takes 4 caster-rounds.

It isn't monk stunning strike spam good at stripping LR, but it ain't bad. A monk can burn ~4 Ki/round (flurry, 3 stuns) to land 3 saves/round, but it is a con save (no ability to focus on weaknesses) and a secondary attribute based DC. At level 8 this monk can force 6 saves in 2 rounds; if the monster has a 80% save rate, this is 1.2 LR burnt/2 rounds. At 2/3 save rate, this is 2 LR burnt. At 50%, this is 3.

Assuming the Barb caster has a notch better chances (can pick stat), at 2/3 it is 10/9 LR in 2 rounds (close to monk 80%), at 50% it is 1.5 LR/2 rounds (lower than monk 2/3). So barbs brings a spellcaster close, but not quite, to monk ability to strip LR.