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Skill-based magic item creation system

Kerrick said:
Wow. That's a little higher than I'd put it, as you can see. I'm more of the mind that low-level PCs (up to about 3rd) could make potions and scrolls.

Well, in my system they CAN, just not reliably (defining reliably as being able to succeed while taking 10). The best 1st level scriber will have an 18 Int, skill focus, max ranks, and mw tools, for a total of +13. This is enough to succeed in scribing a 1st level spell 40% of the time. Since wizards are the only class that really NEEDS more spells at low levels though, I am now considering (after reading your comments) giving them a Magical Scribe feat that grants +5 to Spellcraft checks for the purpose of scribing scrolls instead of the Scribe Scroll feat (wizards just get a bonus feat of their choice at 1st level IMC). A Magical Brewer feat that gives +5 to Alchemy checks for brewing potions would probably work well too. Only low-level characters would take them, but I allow retraining (PH2), so that is a non-issue.
 

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DC 60 sounds reasonable enough for an item of 300,000gp.
Yeah, after reading the comments about the DCs being too low, I'm inclined to agree. I don't do much crafting, so I didn't think to tot up what kind of bonus a crafter would have. It'd be a lot easier if I could find a way to disallow taking 10, but I can't think of a good reason to do so. Course, if they take 10, then they'll never have a chance of, say, rolling a natural 1 and making a cursed item (or even failing, really, because you would know if your check will succeed or not), which obviates a large part of the system. Boosting the DCs could also work; I could say that due to the inherent instability of magic, you can't take 10 (or something like that).

That keeps it pretty much out of the hands of non-epic characters. If there is a feat that adds +2 to a specific craft and profession (don't know why there wouldn't be) then it would still be 35 + bonuses.
I posted a couple feats further up the thread, hidden in a spoiler block - they're designed to replace the item creation feats and grant reductions to DCs and time.

Well, in my system they CAN, just not reliably (defining reliably as being able to succeed while taking 10). The best 1st level scriber will have an 18 Int, skill focus, max ranks, and mw tools, for a total of +13. This is enough to succeed in scribing a 1st level spell 40% of the time.
You said scrolls were DC 25+level... that'd put it at DC 26. A scriber with +13 (who would have to make a roll) would succeed 35% of the time.

Sidetrack:
any Idea why I'm not allowed to see the file linked by "Legendary Spell Creation Rules" in your sig?
Probably because I updated the file a week or so ago and they apparently haven't re-uploaded it. Try this one instead.
 


I propose that the limit on aid another by specified.

My thoughts:

Any mage may have an apprentice act as a primary assistant. The apprentice adds +2 from aid another per the normal skill rules (if successful), but also adds his/her Int mod.

Additional apprentices or mages may provide aid another. One additional assistant may be used per the primary enchanter's Int mod.

---------------------------------------

I forsee a problem in the "fail on 1" rule. Over many days or any long project, you are eventually going to roll a 1.

It will happen. A lot. It will not be appreciated by players, regardless of how realistic it might be.

I propose that on rolling a 1 a disaster is invoked and another d20 is rolled.
  • 1 - Spectacular Disaster: A massive explosion destroys the mage's lab, dealing 10d6 damage that is typed as both physical and fire (Ref. save at -4 for 1/2 damage), and that ignores object hardness. The project is ruined, all materials are lost, the lab is lost.
  • 2-3 - Major Disaster: An explosion wracks the mage's lab, dealing 5d6 damage that is typed as both physical and fire (Ref. save at -4 for 1/2 damage). The project is ruined, all materials are lost, and the lab suffers 6d6 x 1,000gp in damages.
  • 4-6 - Minor Disaster: Due to some mistake of procedure, a flaw is introduced that may not be corrected by any means except wish or miracle. The flaw is obvious. The project may be continued, but the DM will specify that the final product will function in some flawed way. Either it may not work at full output, it may work erratically, it may be cursed. There is no way to know what will happen unless the project is completed.
  • 7-9 - Lab Accident: The primary enchanter suffers an injury in the lab that requires 1d6 days of rest before resuming work (magical healing/cures, regeneration, fast healing being of no help). Add 9d6+9 days and 9d6+9 x 1,000gp to the amount of time and money necessary to complete the project.
  • 10-15 - Major Setback: Add 6d6+6 days and 6d6+6 x 1,000gp to the amount of time and money necessary to complete the project.
  • 15-20 - Minor Setback: Add 3d6+3 days and 3d6+3 x 1,000gp to the amount of time and money necessary to complete the project.
(The above assumes that the mage has some kind of lab that cost some amount of money to build. I haven't had time to write up that part, of course.)

EDIT------------

I'll have to tinker with the additional costs. Maybe I'll change it to an added percentage. as the way it stands, some projects may wind up getting a surcharge greater than the project cost to begin with.
 
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Kerrick said:
Yeah, after reading the comments about the DCs being too low, I'm inclined to agree. I don't do much crafting, so I didn't think to tot up what kind of bonus a crafter would have. It'd be a lot easier if I could find a way to disallow taking 10, but I can't think of a good reason to do so. Course, if they take 10, then they'll never have a chance of, say, rolling a natural 1 and making a cursed item (or even failing, really, because you would know if your check will succeed or not), which obviates a large part of the system. Boosting the DCs could also work; I could say that due to the inherent instability of magic, you can't take 10 (or something like that).
My first thought in reaction to the problem of taking 10 (and how to reduce, if not eliminate, it's use) is to dangle a plum in front of them. Sure, you could take 10 and everything's going to turn out... ordinary. But you'll lose out of the benefits if you, say, go over the target DC by X amount.
(No, I don't have any off-the-top-of-my-head skeletons to throw up illustrating it like every one else. You want that kind of effort we have to go back to spending half a day cranking out stuff on IRC. :P)

For myself, I don't like the idea of taking 10 on a craft check and having any hope of making anything better than Average. You take 10, you're not crafting, you're cookie-cuttering. And that's what you should get. On the other hand, you take your chances and get creative, you could just produce something fantastic that you never dared hope for.
 

I propose that the limit on aid another by specified.
Already done, under the crafting rules. In the majority of cases, the primary crafter will have only 1 assistant.

I forsee a problem in the "fail on 1" rule. Over many days or any long project, you are eventually going to roll a 1.

It will happen. A lot. It will not be appreciated by players, regardless of how realistic it might be.
Law of averages being what it is, you're right. :/ I like the idea of having different things happen on a natural 1, though. Wolvy's idea of special stuff also fits into this pretty well. Instead of major disasters and such, I'd go with varying degrees of failure, say on a d10 -

1-2: A surge in the flows of magic occurs, and the item is drained of all magic. All gold and materials spent so far are lost, but the item can be enchanted again.

3-4: The crafter suffers a major setback. Half the gold and materials are lost, but the item's enchantment is intact and work can proceed normally. The crafter must pay half the original raw material cost again. [Basically this is the same as "fail the roll by 5 or more". I want to have a "nothing happens" result, and this is pretty much the same thing.]

5-8: The crafter suffers a minor setback. He loses 2 days of time due to problems in the item's creation. If the crafting time takes 1 week or more, he loses the entire week. [I'm going to change the original "fail by 5 or more" to "you lose 4 days out of the week" instead of the entire week.]

9-10: A surge in the flows of magic occurs, and the item's enchantment is warped slightly. The item is cursed, but the crafter does not know this. This result is otherwise treated as a minor setback.

(The above assumes that the mage has some kind of lab that cost some amount of money to build. I haven't had time to write up that part, of course.)
According to the DMG, all you need is someplace quiet, comfortable, and well-lit - anyplace that's good for preparing spells is good for making magic items, so you could do it while on the road - take a day off in the inn to work on it (which I don't agree with, personally; I think it should be done in a lab/creation room/whatever, where the crafter has access to materials and/or resources, like manuals, spellbooks, etc.).

(No, I don't have any off-the-top-of-my-head skeletons to throw up illustrating it like every one else. You want that kind of effort we have to go back to spending half a day cranking out stuff on IRC. :P)
Heh. :lol:

For myself, I don't like the idea of taking 10 on a craft check and having any hope of making anything better than Average. You take 10, you're not crafting, you're cookie-cuttering. And that's what you should get. On the other hand, you take your chances and get creative, you could just produce something fantastic that you never dared hope for.
Yeah... I like that idea. Taking 10 is really for when you know you'll make the DC, or for routine stuff that's not worth rolling for - a blacksmith churning out horseshoes, for instance. Making magic items shouldn't ever be routine (except maybe potions, and those fall under Craft (alchemy)). That gives a good justification for not letting PCs be able to take 10. As for a benefits table, just do something similar to the failure table:

1-2: The crafter makes a work of art, and somehow manages to work in a special bonus, which may or may not be known to him. The item has a minor benefit outside of its original enchantment; the DM should choose something related to the item's purpose, or related to the crafter (a cloak of resistance, for instance, made by a specialist evoker could have additional bonuses against energy; a sword made by a cleric could have an extra plus against undead; etc.).

3-4: The crafter makes a breakthrough, or discovers a faster, more efficient method of creation. He accomplishes 3 days' work for that day. If the crafting time is 1 week or more, he accomplishes two weeks' worth of work.

5-8: The flows of magic are working in the crafter's favor, and he accomplishes an extra day's worth of work. If the crafting time is 1 week or more, he gains 3 days' work.

9-10: A surge in the flows of magic occurs, and the item gains an extra minor benefit. [I can't think of anything off the top of my head right at the moment - I'm getting over a really bad headache.]

I thought of something while I was doing this, to prevent abuse/ill will from lots of really good/bad rolls, respectively: The really good/bad stuff can only be applied once. After all, once an item's cursed, it can't be cursed again, right? So only the first natural 1 (or 20) applies as a roll on the charts; everything else is treated as "failure by 5 or more" or "success by 10 or more".
 

Kerrick said:
You said scrolls were DC 25+level... that'd put it at DC 26. A scriber with +13 (who would have to make a roll) would succeed 35% of the time.

A roll of 13 or higher on a d20 includes 8 of 20 possible outcomes. Therefore the rate of success would be 40%.
 

RainOfSteel said:
I forsee a problem in the "fail on 1" rule. Over many days or any long project, you are eventually going to roll a 1.

That is true. However, I recommend a simpler system. On a roll of a 1, the character must reroll. If the second check fails, then 1/10th of the raw materials are ruined and no progress is made for the day. If the second check succeeds, then no progress is made.
 

That is true. However, I recommend a simpler system. On a roll of a 1, the character must reroll. If the second check fails, then 1/10th of the raw materials are ruined and no progress is made for the day. If the second check succeeds, then no progress is made.
That'd work too, but what about the potential for cursed items?
 

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