[Skywalker discussion] What would "break" Star Wars for you?

Legatus_Legionis

< BLAH HA Ha ha >
As you have stated, these sequel trilogies feel like cheap rip-offs of other Star Wars sources, IMO.

Nothing feels authentic nor original.

The sequels to me is Broken.

All the king's men can't put it back together again (Humpty Dumpty reference).
 

Zardnaar

Hero
As you have stated, these sequel trilogies feel like cheap rip-offs of other Star Wars sources, IMO.

Nothing feels authentic nor original.

The sequels to me is Broken.

All the king's men can't put it back together again (Humpty Dumpty reference).
Have you looked closely at the OG Star Destroyers in the trailer? There's something on the bottom you might recognize from the old EU.


Predating the last trailer but it actually doubles down on his observation.

The plot is hitting a lot of the points of Dark Empire along with refluffed specific elements of it like Palps returning, hyperspace superweapons, hidden fleets, bigger better Star Destroyers, Super Star destroyers, Star destroyers with superlasers, new darkside order. There's a few more as well apparently.
 
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Gradine

Archivist
Rogue One was basically two short movies back-to-back; one was really awful and the other was kickin' rad but ultimately sunk because the first half failed to get me to care for the characters in any meaningful way. Solo was... fine. It was... competent. I daresay some parts even approached fun. But ultimately it was completely unnecessary and the behind the scenes drama is probably what ruined it (it could have turned out as either Ant-Man or the most recent Fantastic Four and ended up somewhere squarely in-between).

The Force Awakens was good; yeah it's a little fan-servicey and very re-hashy but that's exactly J.J. Abrams' shtick, it's the one thing he probably does exceedingly well (see also: Super 8) and I personally thought it was exactly what the franchise needed after the prequels basically destroyed anyone's reason to have any faith in the future films. The Last Jedi would have been the perfect Star Wars movie had all the boring business on Canto Bight been about half as long and twice as meaningful in the long run, but it filled at least part of a hole for me and made the universe a little darker and I appreciated that. I will note that KoTOR II is my favorite Star Wars game so I'm definitely not adverse to some deconstruction. That most of the criticism of the movie is flat out factually incorrect (the whole "Rey never fails" thing being the most absurd one as she spends almost the entire movie objectively failing in most of her goals and the tests set out for her) and/or politically motivated makes it easier to ignore, especially considering the film still did exceedingly well, was a critical and commercial success, vocal minority, etc. etc.

Also, again, J.J.'s only really a great filmmaker when he's doing clear homage and while I think that was perfectly fine for TFA that's not going to really fly here, but I'm cautiously optimistic that this will be a fitting if not amazing end to the trilogy.

I think about the only thing that would cause the film to "fail" for me would be if Kylo is redeemed and Rey falls; or maybe if she has to sacrifice herself for his redemption, at least if they try to play it as a "Kylo was the real main character all along" twist which knowing J.J. is at least... kinda plausible?
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Rogue One was basically two short movies back-to-back; one was really awful and the other was kickin' rad but ultimately sunk because the first half failed to get me to care for the characters in any meaningful way. Solo was... fine. It was... competent. I daresay some parts even approached fun. But ultimately it was completely unnecessary and the behind the scenes drama is probably what ruined it (it could have turned out as either Ant-Man or the most recent Fantastic Four and ended up somewhere squarely in-between).

The Force Awakens was good; yeah it's a little fan-servicey and very re-hashy but that's exactly J.J. Abrams' shtick, it's the one thing he probably does exceedingly well (see also: Super 8) and I personally thought it was exactly what the franchise needed after the prequels basically destroyed anyone's reason to have any faith in the future films. The Last Jedi would have been the perfect Star Wars movie had all the boring business on Canto Bight been about half as long and twice as meaningful in the long run, but it filled at least part of a hole for me and made the universe a little darker and I appreciated that. I will note that KoTOR II is my favorite Star Wars game so I'm definitely not adverse to some deconstruction. That most of the criticism of the movie is flat out factually incorrect (the whole "Rey never fails" thing being the most absurd one as she spends almost the entire movie objectively failing in most of her goals and the tests set out for her) and/or politically motivated makes it easier to ignore, especially considering the film still did exceedingly well, was a critical and commercial success, vocal minority, etc. etc.

Also, again, J.J.'s only really a great filmmaker when he's doing clear homage and while I think that was perfectly fine for TFA that's not going to really fly here, but I'm cautiously optimistic that this will be a fitting if not amazing end to the trilogy.

I think about the only thing that would cause the film to "fail" for me would be if Kylo is redeemed and Rey falls; or maybe if she has to sacrifice herself for his redemption, at least if they try to play it as a "Kylo was the real main character all along" twist which knowing J.J. is at least... kinda plausible?
TLJ kind of had a third part of a trilogy vibe to it not part two.

If they spilt it into two movies and tied it I TFA better might have worked better.

Rewatched TFA recently and they made an effort to plant seeds in it which could have been interesting. Expectations subverted.
 

Istbor

Explorer
I don't know if I have said this before. I feel it more and more, that extensive reading or knowledge of the old spin off books is some of the cause of discontent.

Both from people I know, and following topics on the forums. People who read most of that content seem to lean on the "#NotmySWs" side of things.

I think I read a couple of books, both more about Bobba Fett in the aftermath and I feel really good about this new branch of the saga. Sure, there are things I imagined I could have liked better. Alternate time lines for this story. Canto Bite that I thought was just... ugh. I mean, yes, it helps establish this big seedy underbelly of the Galaxy, that good and evil aren't always clear cut. I like those sort of worlds. It just seemed to ruin the pacing for me.

Every time i have this discussion, someone steps in with an old book story line. I see it a lot here too. While I am sure they are mining that material for ideas, it isn't THAT story they are telling.

I hope I don't sound like I am lumping everyone in together who has enjoyed the books. I am sure much of them are quite good. But they don't matter any longer.

Let go... let go of your feelings...
 

Ralif Redhammer

Adventurer
If I kept watching after Jar-Jar Binks, Midichlorians, and the Sand monologue, I’m not sure anything would break Star Wars for me.

I’ve loved all the recent Star Wars movies, and suspect I will love The Rise of Skywalker, too.

That being said I would be a little disappointed in a redemption arc for Kylo Ren. I just don’t know how he could earn that after killing Han Solo and Luke Skywalker. Sure, he could sacrifice himself for some noble cause, but to make it ring true as redemption, that’d be a hard sell.
 

Tonguez

Adventurer
Midichlorians and whiney Anakin already broke Star Wars, the original New Hope trilogy crafted an epic fantasy and heroes journey from peasant farmer to Champion battling the Dark Knight and evil Empire, the 'prequel
tore the fantasy down so ot became just another sci-fi setting

Force Awakens helped redeem it,but I had already lost interest, so havemt actually finished watching any of the stories after that. (I've started watching both Rogue One and Last Jedi, but didnt feel compelled to stay and so couldnt tell you how they ended)
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
That being said I would be a little disappointed in a redemption arc for Kylo Ren. I just don’t know how he could earn that after killing Han Solo and Luke Skywalker. Sure, he could sacrifice himself for some noble cause, but to make it ring true as redemption, that’d be a hard sell.
I mean, Vader redeemed himself after:
A. Killing his mentor, Obi Wan.
B. Um, killing off all of the Jedi. Including the kids.
C. Killing, just, you know, a genocidal amount of people.

So ... it's good to have low standards, amirite?
 

Istbor

Explorer
Midichlorians and whiney Anakin already broke Star Wars, the original New Hope trilogy crafted an epic fantasy and heroes journey from peasant farmer to Champion battling the Dark Knight and evil Empire, the 'prequel
tore the fantasy down so ot became just another sci-fi setting

Force Awakens helped redeem it,but I had already lost interest, so havemt actually finished watching any of the stories after that. (I've started watching both Rogue One and Last Jedi, but didnt feel compelled to stay and so couldnt tell you how they ended)
I mean, Vader redeemed himself after:
A. Killing his mentor, Obi Wan.
B. Um, killing off all of the Jedi. Including the kids.
C. Killing, just, you know, a genocidal amount of people.

So ... it's good to have low standards, amirite?
But... but...V-Vader! Vader, man! Vader!
 

Mustrum_Ridcully

Adventurer
I guess it kinda broke a bit. TFA basically decided that the original trilogy's heroes ultimately failed and had a sad, unhappy life filled with regret, and TLJ did hammer it home.

But that doesn't mean Star Wars its over. It'S just not as exciting anymore as it used to be, my heart isn't as much into it. It's more like... The Fast and Furious perhaps? Somethings I can watch because it has some cool stuff in it, but its not like I care that much, and I might not need to see all the installments in the cinema, I probably won't rewatch any of them, but I probably can expect some entertainment if I do.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
I guess it kinda broke a bit. TFA basically decided that the original trilogy's heroes ultimately failed and had a sad, unhappy life filled with regret, and TLJ did hammer it home.
Maybe that was the problem for some people? You know, like a mirror?

"Yeah, when you were a kid, you thought it was all light sabers and pew pew pew. You save the princess and everyone lives happily ever after, and maybe get a medal.

But then you grow up, and your kid is a whiny emo teen that you don't even recognize, and you and the princess are divorced, and you just want to be by yourself, knocking back a brewski some blue milk while you understand the wreckage of your life."

JJ Abrams, probably.
 
The Last Jedi is one of the worst films in the recent decade, but visually it is a masterpiece. Much like Game of Thrones Season 8, it has an exceedingly impossibly terrible script but really good everything else.
 

Ralif Redhammer

Adventurer
I like to think of it as having an intact sense of wonder, not low standards..;)

That being said:
A. We just met Obi Wan an hour or so earlier when that happened. Han and Luke are childhood icons.
B. The Younglings hadn't been invented yet. Presumably, we'd have felt differently about Vader's redemption had there been a flashback of him murdering children in the original trilogy.
C.... Um, yeah, truth. No arguments here.

I mean, Vader redeemed himself after:
A. Killing his mentor, Obi Wan.
B. Um, killing off all of the Jedi. Including the kids.
C. Killing, just, you know, a genocidal amount of people.

So ... it's good to have low standards, amirite?
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
I like to think of it as having an intact sense of wonder, not low standards..;)

That being said:
A. We just met Obi Wan an hour or so earlier when that happened. Han and Luke are childhood icons.
B. The Younglings hadn't been invented yet. Presumably, we'd have felt differently about Vader's redemption had there been a flashback of him murdering children in the original trilogy.
C.... Um, yeah, truth. No arguments here.
Heh, I was kidding, mostly.

But you have to admit, our standards for allowing the redemption of fictional characters are pretty lax!

"Sure, he killed millions of people across the Galaxy, and ruthlessly murdered children in cold blood, but you have to admit, when push came to shove, he only cut off his son's hand- it's not like he killed him!"
 

Mustrum_Ridcully

Adventurer
Maybe that was the problem for some people? You know, like a mirror?

"Yeah, when you were a kid, you thought it was all light sabers and pew pew pew. You save the princess and everyone lives happily ever after, and maybe get a medal.

But then you grow up, and your kid is a whiny emo teen that you don't even recognize, and you and the princess are divorced, and you just want to be by yourself, knocking back a brewski some blue milk while you understand the wreckage of your life."

JJ Abrams, probably.
YOu know, it's not that uncommon these days to do "fairy tale deconstructions" and show us that maybe just because your kiss woke up a princess that isn't the basis of a happy marriage or a stable government.

But the "beauty" of it is ... It's just one possible continuation.

But with a franchise like Star Wars - there is only the official one. There will be no others. If they decide that there is no happily everafter for your heroes, then you can't choose to ignore it and instead wait for the other movie were things turn out pretty good for them and the problems only start to happen long after they are gone, and it's time for new heroes to rise to the occasion.

Maybe all this is an argument against long-term copyrights and trademarks.
If Star Wars a "real" fairy tale, Disney could make some amazing Sci-Fi movies for the big scree, while CW makes some young adult relationship drama based around the Force, the Empire and the Rebels, and the BBC makes a mini-series about the origin of Darth Vader, and HBO makes a Star Wars retelling in a 21st century alternate reality.
But as it is, you can only buy the one "official" "licensed" version, and if you don't like what they come up with, tough luck, that story is now forever part of it and is not going away.
Creators like George Lucas or Gene Roddenberry (and the other creative people involved in giving their franchise life) certainly deserve the money they earned for their creation, but maybe at some point their creation still should go into the public domain so that others can expand on it, just as like people did with Sherlock Holmes or Shakespeare Dramas and Comedies or Homer's Odyssey.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
I don't know if I have said this before. I feel it more and more, that extensive reading or knowledge of the old spin off books is some of the cause of discontent.

Both from people I know, and following topics on the forums. People who read most of that content seem to lean on the "#NotmySWs" side of things.

I think I read a couple of books, both more about Bobba Fett in the aftermath and I feel really good about this new branch of the saga. Sure, there are things I imagined I could have liked better. Alternate time lines for this story. Canto Bite that I thought was just... ugh. I mean, yes, it helps establish this big seedy underbelly of the Galaxy, that good and evil aren't always clear cut. I like those sort of worlds. It just seemed to ruin the pacing for me.

Every time i have this discussion, someone steps in with an old book story line. I see it a lot here too. While I am sure they are mining that material for ideas, it isn't THAT story they are telling.

I hope I don't sound like I am lumping everyone in together who has enjoyed the books. I am sure much of them are quite good. But they don't matter any longer.

Let go... let go of your feelings...
I mentioned this in the other thread. The old EU lasted 23 years even longer if you count the old marvel comics but the revival started 1991.

The problem of burning it down is why reinvest time and money into a new EU when they might do the same thing in the future if they reboot or sell the franchise.

Haven't bought a sausage in that regard since 2014.

The other problem was you had the old EU and previous movies establishing how things work. They swerved that but didn't explain to much and those explainations weren't put in the movies.

They kind of hint about the force awakens in VII but never followed it up.

ANH and say the old Thrawn trilogy did a lot better job at introducing their new world.

I probably would have either burned the old EU down or cherry picked parts of it for the new canon. 3 characters in particular could be mined and you could reuse the TIE Defender on the big screen.

If you're going to destroy something better get the replacement right (see 4E, New Coke etc).
 

Zardnaar

Hero
YOu know, it's not that uncommon these days to do "fairy tale deconstructions" and show us that maybe just because your kiss woke up a princess that isn't the basis of a happy marriage or a stable government.

But the "beauty" of it is ... It's just one possible continuation.

But with a franchise like Star Wars - there is only the official one. There will be no others. If they decide that there is no happily everafter for your heroes, then you can't choose to ignore it and instead wait for the other movie were things turn out pretty good for them and the problems only start to happen long after they are gone, and it's time for new heroes to rise to the occasion.

Maybe all this is an argument against long-term copyrights and trademarks.
If Star Wars a "real" fairy tale, Disney could make some amazing Sci-Fi movies for the big scree, while CW makes some young adult relationship drama based around the Force, the Empire and the Rebels, and the BBC makes a mini-series about the origin of Darth Vader, and HBO makes a Star Wars retelling in a 21st century alternate reality.
But as it is, you can only buy the one "official" "licensed" version, and if you don't like what they come up with, tough luck, that story is now forever part of it and is not going away.
Creators like George Lucas or Gene Roddenberry (and the other creative people involved in giving their franchise life) certainly deserve the money they earned for their creation, but maybe at some point their creation still should go into the public domain so that others can expand on it, just as like people did with Sherlock Holmes or Shakespeare Dramas and Comedies or Homer's Odyssey.
You can do that if course just don't be surprised if fans turn in you if you do

It's fairly predictable even. I can only assume Disney assumed anything with Star Wars on it would sell.

Now they're losing money, can't sell the toys, losing money on Star Wars films and can't fill their Star Wars theme park.

How do you lose money on a Star Wars film? Seriously figure that one out.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Making the Dark Side explicitly an equal opposite that is part of nature, instead of a corruption of it, would come pretty close.

I mean, I won't watch Rogue One because it posits that the Rebel Alliance used child assassins, and that is a direct 180 from the basic moral fabric of the story before that point. It changes who and what the Rebels are, and as a result changes the OT story.

Stories about Good winning against Evil have value. They shouldn't be changed into shades of grey garbage just because Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad made a lot of money.

In other words, if they make SW a story in which Good and Evil don't actually exist, where hope doesn't really mean anything, and where the heroes are just less bad than the villains, I'll probably be done with any future permutations of the franchise.

Luckily, that doesn't seem to be where they are actually going, it just seems to be something they're flirting with a bit. So, I'm good.
 

Zardnaar

Hero
Making the Dark Side explicitly an equal opposite that is part of nature, instead of a corruption of it, would come pretty close.

I mean, I won't watch Rogue One because it posits that the Rebel Alliance used child assassins, and that is a direct 180 from the basic moral fabric of the story before that point. It changes who and what the Rebels are, and as a result changes the OT story.

Stories about Good winning against Evil have value. They shouldn't be changed into shades of grey garbage just because Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad made a lot of money.

In other words, if they make SW a story in which Good and Evil don't actually exist, where hope doesn't really mean anything, and where the heroes are just less bad than the villains, I'll probably be done with any future permutations of the franchise.

Luckily, that doesn't seem to be where they are actually going, it just seems to be something they're flirting with a bit. So, I'm good.
The process started long before then.
I'll see if I can find it but there's an article saying the average Star Wars fan is a 46 year old middle class white mail.

So a child in the 80s.

80s had these big action heroes and cartoons and things like Hulk Hogan.

90s roll round, the kids if the 80s are now teenagers.

What happened in the 90s? Decade starts with grunge music, gangsta rap and Marilyn Manson takes off mid 90s, Hulk Hogan turns heel and Stone Cold is drinking beer and flipping people off.

90s ends with movies like Matrix, and aggressive nu metal and The Sopranos

Star Wars 1991 cartoonish over the top Palpatine. Star War Wars 1999 religious war, genocide, inter galactic invasion.

It's not impossible to do a traditional good vs evil it's a lot harder though especially with the last 20 years of television aka the Golden age of tv.
In the 80s you might steal dad's Playboy, now kids are accessing hardcore porn on cellphones.

Modern kids don't seem to get Star Wars either at least like they used to. Resistance just got cancelled recently and they're doing another season of The Clone Wars.

The Mandalorian is getting rave hype over that trailer. Looks like Disney is pivoting. You need to figure out how to market to the fans. Get them on board you get their kids. Get those kids they will tell their friends.

New trailer for IX was also pushing the OT stuff hard.
 

ccs

39th lv DM
I mean, Vader redeemed himself after:
A. Killing his mentor, Obi Wan.
B. Um, killing off all of the Jedi. Including the kids.
C. Killing, just, you know, a genocidal amount of people.

So ... it's good to have low standards, amirite?
Yeah. It's been 36 years since I first saw RotJ & I still haven't bought that.
Luke might've. And we're shown him as good Anikin-the-Force-ghost. But I still don't buy it.
 

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