Slavery, Rape, Madness and War!
- Thread starter SHARK
- Start date
None of my players are mature enough (except the youngest ironically) are mature enough to appreciate a moral dilema much less rape, slavery or madness
So we run a pg gam, more or less like table top Diablo. Needless to say I forming a new group ASAP
Also I run a rather up-beat world where most of the problems come from Outside rather than from fellow man.
I figure there is enough evil in the real world, thank you
If I may "Hijack"your excellent thread a bit I would like to show
how there things are removed from a setting without the loss of versimilitude
my world is basically a PG Ren Faire World but logical in construction
Game wise
Slavery is in serious retreat (it lost 3/4 of its political strength recently)
There are areas that are decadent and still keep slaves but they are under pressure to drop the practice. Exterminator squads that
attack and kill slavers are socially OK with the Civilized nations
Also all of the humans in my world are derived from 20th and 21st century people and share much of our value sets. This means that a "socially" OK rape and to a lesser extent slavery just isn't going to happen.
Also there are many many female magicers out there who will avenge a defiled woman in a suitably horrible fashion
That combined with Paladins, Clerics, Detect Evil and so on makes a sucessfull rape rather rare.
Women have rather high social status in my world and birth control is universal thus you have a much more modern world, not a primative world where women are chattel
And as for Half Orcs, there aren't any. Orcs and humans are not fertile and Orcs don't rape humans.
Orcs mindset "I can rape this human but they will still be alive and will (Orcs are almost always violent) kill me, also if I scare them they fight harder. Better kill quick"
Madness? Natural madness is usually treated by magic in civilized countries, there really aren't asylums per say. Otherwise the mad are ignored
Taint, caused by teleport sickness is harder to cure. The usual cure is to kill the person.
War? I haven't many of those either. There are several reasons
Outsiders: A weak human nation will be swamped with Cuthuliod Horrors, Fiends, Undead or <shudder> Elves fast. There has (because of the last three near apocolypses) been a general "no big wars" rule in place
Epic Mages. A single casting of an epic spell can destroy entire citites and while the spells aren't common there are enough patriotic mages out there to serve a nuclear deterent. Also it is suspected the First Race was destroyed utterly by an Arcane war.
The presence of Shene. A lot of humans have Shene blood in them and the Shene are not warlike. They are very close to human, enough for full fertitlity but they lack much of the quarrelsome ambitious facets of the human personality. I would describe them as having elements of Hindu Mystic and Australian Aboriginal Cultures
Exhaustion. The Major powers that could be conquest oriented are too depleted to fight, My Imperial Setting has very remaining few spell casters above tenth level as it is unwise to anger a 50th level Wizard. My "European" Fuedal setting is in the middle of a civil war. My Republic is too small and My Consitutional Monarchy is much too Shene in culture. THe other powers are too small and backward to conquer anything
Magic
The general rule of thumb for magic IMC is that Offense is 3x stronger than defense. Ergo if I cast a city-killer spell (rain of acid FREX) it will require you to have 3x as much magic to stop it. Essentially you can't defend cities or even units very well. Yes there are Artifacts that allow whole units to defend against spells but they are HARD to make, and selectable Enhanced Fireball (L4 spell) wands are easy. Remember a spell to create a globe to stop that is at least 6th level (minor globe won't work) and the caster can just move elsewhere.
Clerics: While Sorcerers IMC can learn the Bardic Healing spells the number of healers on a battle field is very limited. Clerics are forbidden from enganing in secular war. The are a few exceptions, the evil gods and well the god of exceptions but basically there is very little magic healing
Medicine is about US Civil War era with less amputation. This makes battle very nasty, One fireball means even if some of the guys caught in the blast the willbe badly burned and very likly
killed by infection.
UGH
I don't dodge the issues I just build a world where they just don't exist as much
So we run a pg gam, more or less like table top Diablo. Needless to say I forming a new group ASAP
Also I run a rather up-beat world where most of the problems come from Outside rather than from fellow man.
I figure there is enough evil in the real world, thank you
If I may "Hijack"your excellent thread a bit I would like to show
how there things are removed from a setting without the loss of versimilitude
my world is basically a PG Ren Faire World but logical in construction
Game wise
Slavery is in serious retreat (it lost 3/4 of its political strength recently)
There are areas that are decadent and still keep slaves but they are under pressure to drop the practice. Exterminator squads that
attack and kill slavers are socially OK with the Civilized nations
Also all of the humans in my world are derived from 20th and 21st century people and share much of our value sets. This means that a "socially" OK rape and to a lesser extent slavery just isn't going to happen.
Also there are many many female magicers out there who will avenge a defiled woman in a suitably horrible fashion
That combined with Paladins, Clerics, Detect Evil and so on makes a sucessfull rape rather rare.
Women have rather high social status in my world and birth control is universal thus you have a much more modern world, not a primative world where women are chattel
And as for Half Orcs, there aren't any. Orcs and humans are not fertile and Orcs don't rape humans.
Orcs mindset "I can rape this human but they will still be alive and will (Orcs are almost always violent) kill me, also if I scare them they fight harder. Better kill quick"
Madness? Natural madness is usually treated by magic in civilized countries, there really aren't asylums per say. Otherwise the mad are ignored
Taint, caused by teleport sickness is harder to cure. The usual cure is to kill the person.
War? I haven't many of those either. There are several reasons
Outsiders: A weak human nation will be swamped with Cuthuliod Horrors, Fiends, Undead or <shudder> Elves fast. There has (because of the last three near apocolypses) been a general "no big wars" rule in place
Epic Mages. A single casting of an epic spell can destroy entire citites and while the spells aren't common there are enough patriotic mages out there to serve a nuclear deterent. Also it is suspected the First Race was destroyed utterly by an Arcane war.
The presence of Shene. A lot of humans have Shene blood in them and the Shene are not warlike. They are very close to human, enough for full fertitlity but they lack much of the quarrelsome ambitious facets of the human personality. I would describe them as having elements of Hindu Mystic and Australian Aboriginal Cultures
Exhaustion. The Major powers that could be conquest oriented are too depleted to fight, My Imperial Setting has very remaining few spell casters above tenth level as it is unwise to anger a 50th level Wizard. My "European" Fuedal setting is in the middle of a civil war. My Republic is too small and My Consitutional Monarchy is much too Shene in culture. THe other powers are too small and backward to conquer anything
Magic
The general rule of thumb for magic IMC is that Offense is 3x stronger than defense. Ergo if I cast a city-killer spell (rain of acid FREX) it will require you to have 3x as much magic to stop it. Essentially you can't defend cities or even units very well. Yes there are Artifacts that allow whole units to defend against spells but they are HARD to make, and selectable Enhanced Fireball (L4 spell) wands are easy. Remember a spell to create a globe to stop that is at least 6th level (minor globe won't work) and the caster can just move elsewhere.
Clerics: While Sorcerers IMC can learn the Bardic Healing spells the number of healers on a battle field is very limited. Clerics are forbidden from enganing in secular war. The are a few exceptions, the evil gods and well the god of exceptions but basically there is very little magic healing
Medicine is about US Civil War era with less amputation. This makes battle very nasty, One fireball means even if some of the guys caught in the blast the willbe badly burned and very likly
killed by infection.
UGH
I don't dodge the issues I just build a world where they just don't exist as much
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AngelTears
First Post
Grazzt said:
The ruler raped the guards too?Sorry, just the way it was worded (or the way my brain comprehended the way it was written).
I didn't mean that! She get's dragged to the rulers private chambers (insert screaming and whimpering from behind closed doors) and then the guards drag her off for some fun.
There is more to the character but it is not appropriate here. Suffice to say that during the campaign she seems to be on a one way ticket into madness of the eldritch kind (the main cause some 'not so nice' comments from the characters, which cause her to read a book on Necromancy... the kind where they rest of the characters have to have an emergence conferency after being chased out of the castle by the character).
But for politically incorrect games, there was a 'Con game on with the characters being responsible for a concentration camp (and no the characters were not there to liberate it). I don't much more then that the death count was high.
GnomeWorks
Adventurer
Hmm.
Lots of interesting thoughts here.
This is a thread that has been needed ever since the BoVD had been known about. A thread where the issues discussed in the said book can be discussed in a mature matter, and things looked at from a calm, almost un-biased point of view.
First off - let me say that I am only of 15 years of age, and have been gaming for a decade of that. I want to state that first off, to help show what one who is younger than the vast majority of people here thinks. Hopefully, of course, my age will not affect anyone else's thoughts regarding my own ideas.
Now, to address the points that SHARK has put before us...
I tend to try for a decently realistic game. It is in my opinion that a game that is not realistic, in even a small sense, is not worth being played. A world that is obviously false is unenjoyable - just as, in RL, a perfect utopia would be false and quite unenjoyable. I often tell those IMC that the world is alive - as a matter of fact, I told those in the Psionicle several times early on that the world is alive, that they can choose the path they take and the world will react to it.
I have oft pondered these four things that SHARK has mentioned.
War - it is present IMC, and as a matter of fact, there is no long stretch of time in which there was no war - in effect, there was/is no 'golden age' IMC. Wars happen every few decades, and have varying motivational factors.
I tend to gloss over wars, putting them in past history and in the past tense, having been done and partially forgotten. War is hell, however, and they aren't pretty.
Slavery - for some odd reason, this hasn't worked itself into my campaign setting. I honestly cannot say why. There are no areas IMC that have ever seemed to have the chance to take slaves, or the 'need' to. This is an issue that I haven't considered much. Of course, the old illithid empire held an entire continent as slaves, but that is in the past and I haven't considered the implications much.
And even though humanoids - I bring them up because they are often portrayed as having slaves - are present IMC, they are a moderately accepted part of life: orcs helped the humans live through the Coldlands and produce their civilization of technology; goblins assisted an ancient culture in throwing off the yoke of illithid enslavement; and kobolds helped research inward magical power and produce the art known as sorcery. None of them hold slaves, and they are as equal as a human in many places.
Rape - That one, I have not even touched. Though I have considered the implications of it a few times, I have never used it in my world nor in a campaign. To be honest, the people I game with in RL are too immature to handle it, and the games I run out here are on a public forum where such things are quite beyond good taste, IMO.
As I said before, however, I go for a game and world that *feels* realistic, and go for it being that way in every way possible. If such an act would fit and make sense, then I would perhaps make it so... and if I deemed it fitting, then it would occur, regardless of whether the character in question was an NPC or a PC.
Why? Realism, dear people, realism... it is IMO that the game, while played to be enjoyed, is alive and needs to reflect that life... in RL, do people choose to be raped? No, they do not. Therefore, I don't think that I would consult a PC before continuing the game with that in place. Then again, I would probably only do such a thing with mature players in the first place - my RL group, as I have said before, is quite immature, and I probably wouldn't even consider bringing rape into the picture. And if mature players can't handle it, then they probably aren't as mature as I thought they were.
And, as SHARK has pointed out before, a PC who has lived through such an event becomes unique and has an interesting motivational factor. NPCs, too, have an added depth to them, when past events reflect upon their current personalities.
Is that an evil outlook? Am I vile because I would honestly do such a thing to a PC before asking them? Perhaps I am, and perhaps I am not... however, I would never do such a thing without much consideration beforehand. Such a course of action is not to be taken lightly, and many hours would be spent in thought before it were done.
Madness - Another one that I haven't really considered. True mental diseases are rare IMC, although there are the traditional 'mad prophets'. Other than that, however, there is a lack of this IMC, just like rape and slavery.
This one I would be more comfortable with throwing into IMC than rape, though less comfortable than with slavery. As I have said several times, I go for realism, and if I were to utilize mental illnesses, I would do research upon them to find what I was looking for, and attempt to portray it correctly. Needless to say, this would be quite a bit of work... and while I would be quite willing to do so if the story needed it or if it fit within the world, I would not put it in if it were useless and hollow, nor if I would be unable to closely portray it as it is in RL.
As for the BoVD - I plan on getting it, if my parents allow me to. Although I like to think of myself as one who decently portrays a realistic world, I can see from SHARK's example that I am far from being as such. I am uncertain how much the BoVD will assist in that venue, but it will hopefully provide a few insights into these areas that I am as yet uncertain of.
Perhaps I managed to say something in my ramblings... perhaps I didn't. Hopefully, though, I did make a point in there somewhere. I hope I didn't just take up space with my post
.
Lots of interesting thoughts here.
This is a thread that has been needed ever since the BoVD had been known about. A thread where the issues discussed in the said book can be discussed in a mature matter, and things looked at from a calm, almost un-biased point of view.
First off - let me say that I am only of 15 years of age, and have been gaming for a decade of that. I want to state that first off, to help show what one who is younger than the vast majority of people here thinks. Hopefully, of course, my age will not affect anyone else's thoughts regarding my own ideas.
Now, to address the points that SHARK has put before us...
I tend to try for a decently realistic game. It is in my opinion that a game that is not realistic, in even a small sense, is not worth being played. A world that is obviously false is unenjoyable - just as, in RL, a perfect utopia would be false and quite unenjoyable. I often tell those IMC that the world is alive - as a matter of fact, I told those in the Psionicle several times early on that the world is alive, that they can choose the path they take and the world will react to it.
I have oft pondered these four things that SHARK has mentioned.
War - it is present IMC, and as a matter of fact, there is no long stretch of time in which there was no war - in effect, there was/is no 'golden age' IMC. Wars happen every few decades, and have varying motivational factors.
I tend to gloss over wars, putting them in past history and in the past tense, having been done and partially forgotten. War is hell, however, and they aren't pretty.
Slavery - for some odd reason, this hasn't worked itself into my campaign setting. I honestly cannot say why. There are no areas IMC that have ever seemed to have the chance to take slaves, or the 'need' to. This is an issue that I haven't considered much. Of course, the old illithid empire held an entire continent as slaves, but that is in the past and I haven't considered the implications much.
And even though humanoids - I bring them up because they are often portrayed as having slaves - are present IMC, they are a moderately accepted part of life: orcs helped the humans live through the Coldlands and produce their civilization of technology; goblins assisted an ancient culture in throwing off the yoke of illithid enslavement; and kobolds helped research inward magical power and produce the art known as sorcery. None of them hold slaves, and they are as equal as a human in many places.
Rape - That one, I have not even touched. Though I have considered the implications of it a few times, I have never used it in my world nor in a campaign. To be honest, the people I game with in RL are too immature to handle it, and the games I run out here are on a public forum where such things are quite beyond good taste, IMO.
As I said before, however, I go for a game and world that *feels* realistic, and go for it being that way in every way possible. If such an act would fit and make sense, then I would perhaps make it so... and if I deemed it fitting, then it would occur, regardless of whether the character in question was an NPC or a PC.
Why? Realism, dear people, realism... it is IMO that the game, while played to be enjoyed, is alive and needs to reflect that life... in RL, do people choose to be raped? No, they do not. Therefore, I don't think that I would consult a PC before continuing the game with that in place. Then again, I would probably only do such a thing with mature players in the first place - my RL group, as I have said before, is quite immature, and I probably wouldn't even consider bringing rape into the picture. And if mature players can't handle it, then they probably aren't as mature as I thought they were.
And, as SHARK has pointed out before, a PC who has lived through such an event becomes unique and has an interesting motivational factor. NPCs, too, have an added depth to them, when past events reflect upon their current personalities.
Is that an evil outlook? Am I vile because I would honestly do such a thing to a PC before asking them? Perhaps I am, and perhaps I am not... however, I would never do such a thing without much consideration beforehand. Such a course of action is not to be taken lightly, and many hours would be spent in thought before it were done.
Madness - Another one that I haven't really considered. True mental diseases are rare IMC, although there are the traditional 'mad prophets'. Other than that, however, there is a lack of this IMC, just like rape and slavery.
This one I would be more comfortable with throwing into IMC than rape, though less comfortable than with slavery. As I have said several times, I go for realism, and if I were to utilize mental illnesses, I would do research upon them to find what I was looking for, and attempt to portray it correctly. Needless to say, this would be quite a bit of work... and while I would be quite willing to do so if the story needed it or if it fit within the world, I would not put it in if it were useless and hollow, nor if I would be unable to closely portray it as it is in RL.
As for the BoVD - I plan on getting it, if my parents allow me to. Although I like to think of myself as one who decently portrays a realistic world, I can see from SHARK's example that I am far from being as such. I am uncertain how much the BoVD will assist in that venue, but it will hopefully provide a few insights into these areas that I am as yet uncertain of.
Perhaps I managed to say something in my ramblings... perhaps I didn't. Hopefully, though, I did make a point in there somewhere. I hope I didn't just take up space with my post
.NoOneofConsequence
First Post
SHARK said:
In my last campaign we had a (homebrew) order of monks & clerics called the "Sisterhood of the White Rose". Their patron saint was a young woman who had been raped and left for dead and had turned avenger. The order offered shelter and succor for all women and avenged women against rapists and slavers. High ranking members became "Thorns", a prestige class that combined elements of the Lasher and druid classes.
One PC was a Thorn. She was great and she and my wife had no end of fun taking it to the rapists (my wife is a social worker specialising in DV [domestic violence]). One of the best IC actions was their joint attack on an alchemist who was supplying local slavers with a cheap narcotic to keep slaves docile. They beat him, interrogated him, executed him and then burnt his shop, absolutely refusing to search either him or his shop for treasure.
One less pleasant memory was when the Thorn player got into a huge fight with her husband because the in character hostility between their two characters spilled over into real life.
It's only a game but Slavery, Rape, Madness and War give that game some serious edge.
GrayIguana
First Post
My use of evil themes
I like some of the points you make SHARK.
I think I have used all of these themes and then some in my games. The one thing I don't do is subject the PCs to any of these things except for a rare circumstance. I can't even remember a time when one of these things has happened to a PC. I also don't encourage my players to conduct any of these acts. I just haven't ever run an campaign of evil PCs (though we have been tempted to run a group dedicated to destroying the good NPCs of the Forgotten Realms)
Madness: My current party just finished destroying a Cult of Madness. I thought it was great for adding new spells/curses and strange NPCs.
Rape: One of the most hated villains of an old campaign was designed as a Calligula-type character. The PCs couldn't wait to bring justice to this tyrant. One of this tyrant's hobbies was watching public rapings in a personal colliseum. The PCs didn't witness the events but heard the stories and eventually met victims.
War: My current campaign is in a country embroiled in a war. It is mainly a backdrop, but they work against enemies who are striking behind the lines, and for efforts that support the front-lines
Slavery: My campaign contains many cultures who embrace slavery. The empire currently warring against the PCs homeland is run by powerful humanoids who make a business of capturing humans for slave and sacrifices.
Terrorism: My PCs are currently hunting an enemy terrorist who is hiding in their country. The NPC knows they are after him and he kills as much as he can to frustrate the PCs (and build their anger).
Sacrifices: There are evil gods and they demand something for the easy power they grant their followers.
Genocide: Like war, this has been more of a back drop. So far I have only had humanoids doing this to humans or other humanoids. I also have a large society of giants who believe all non-giant races are parasites on the world, and they go to great lengths to rid the world of the "short races". That falls into a type of Racism too, doesn't it?
I feel that without adding many of these elements, the story line becomes little more than a jump from one dungeon crawl to the next. While my players enjoy hunting for a lost treasure, there is a need to set up villains that are worth the effort, and worth a continuing story line.
I like some of the points you make SHARK.
I think I have used all of these themes and then some in my games. The one thing I don't do is subject the PCs to any of these things except for a rare circumstance. I can't even remember a time when one of these things has happened to a PC. I also don't encourage my players to conduct any of these acts. I just haven't ever run an campaign of evil PCs (though we have been tempted to run a group dedicated to destroying the good NPCs of the Forgotten Realms)
Madness: My current party just finished destroying a Cult of Madness. I thought it was great for adding new spells/curses and strange NPCs.
Rape: One of the most hated villains of an old campaign was designed as a Calligula-type character. The PCs couldn't wait to bring justice to this tyrant. One of this tyrant's hobbies was watching public rapings in a personal colliseum. The PCs didn't witness the events but heard the stories and eventually met victims.
War: My current campaign is in a country embroiled in a war. It is mainly a backdrop, but they work against enemies who are striking behind the lines, and for efforts that support the front-lines
Slavery: My campaign contains many cultures who embrace slavery. The empire currently warring against the PCs homeland is run by powerful humanoids who make a business of capturing humans for slave and sacrifices.
Terrorism: My PCs are currently hunting an enemy terrorist who is hiding in their country. The NPC knows they are after him and he kills as much as he can to frustrate the PCs (and build their anger).
Sacrifices: There are evil gods and they demand something for the easy power they grant their followers.
Genocide: Like war, this has been more of a back drop. So far I have only had humanoids doing this to humans or other humanoids. I also have a large society of giants who believe all non-giant races are parasites on the world, and they go to great lengths to rid the world of the "short races". That falls into a type of Racism too, doesn't it?
I feel that without adding many of these elements, the story line becomes little more than a jump from one dungeon crawl to the next. While my players enjoy hunting for a lost treasure, there is a need to set up villains that are worth the effort, and worth a continuing story line.
the Jester
Legend
I've used all these "mature" themes in my campaigns at one point or another. There was a pc who was raped (years ago), and that's prolly the touchiest subject here. There have been several more recently in the orcish campaign I ran (starting with Ike Dyson, an ex-monk boxer type modelled on Mike Tyson, who as we all know has served time for rape.) (shrug) It happens. I don't like to sugarcoat in my campaign, and part of the game is evil and conflict with it.
On the other hand, I don't go out of my way to emphasize horrible behavior, either. After all, there's enough murder and destruction in the game already (it often boils down to killing things and stealing their money, after all).
War? It's almost a constant presence imc- but not always where the pcs are. In fact, they sometimes relocate to avoid it!
Madness? Well, discounting the madness prestige domain, there have been a number of insane folk that pcs have dealt with over the years. One arch-villain a while back was totally insane, and he was prolly responsible for more pc deaths than any other single npc. And there are occasionally the mad pcs, too. Also, there was a great deal of fun with insane npcs when I ran the Gates of Firestorm Peak about a year ago- a crazy dwarf with gibberslugs running through his body and brain, Madreus the alienist, and Nigel, who was a pc's father... Good times!
And slavery exists in many places imc, but not all. The aforementioned orcish campaign saw a number of instances where pcs were nearly enslaved, and one (tabaxi) pc ended up enslaved by another (orcish) pc. Poor kitty!
On the other hand, I don't go out of my way to emphasize horrible behavior, either. After all, there's enough murder and destruction in the game already (it often boils down to killing things and stealing their money, after all).
War? It's almost a constant presence imc- but not always where the pcs are. In fact, they sometimes relocate to avoid it!
Madness? Well, discounting the madness prestige domain, there have been a number of insane folk that pcs have dealt with over the years. One arch-villain a while back was totally insane, and he was prolly responsible for more pc deaths than any other single npc. And there are occasionally the mad pcs, too. Also, there was a great deal of fun with insane npcs when I ran the Gates of Firestorm Peak about a year ago- a crazy dwarf with gibberslugs running through his body and brain, Madreus the alienist, and Nigel, who was a pc's father... Good times!
And slavery exists in many places imc, but not all. The aforementioned orcish campaign saw a number of instances where pcs were nearly enslaved, and one (tabaxi) pc ended up enslaved by another (orcish) pc. Poor kitty!
CCamfield
First Post
SHARK said:
Well, I know there are different methods of acting, but I think there can be a closer association between players and their characters, than actors and theirs. I mean, if you're an actor taking a role, (a) you're going to presumably know the script and the character in advance, and (b) once the run of the play is over, you don't have to keep playing the same character.
Although the discussion has been about slavery, rape, madness, and war, the original quote you referred to was "slavery, rape, and torture". I can see how any of those conditions when applied to a player character could be upsetting because they're degrading and involve a loss of control. I haven't read the BoVD threads, but I wonder if the people who made those comments were REALLY talking in the abstract ("not even evil countries or groups in my game use slavery, no games would even involve rescuing slaves"). I would blindly guess they were thinking more of the specific ("I don't have NPCs rape the player characters, or sell the PCs into slavery").
Immature? I don't know. If a player joined a game expecting it to be a semi-comedic swashbuckler, it would be damn well out of place for their female fencer to get raped by the villain. If they knew they were joining a dark fantasy campaign, well, then they shouldn't be surprised, perhaps?
SHARK said:
Then to be honest, I don't think you should have labelled gaming without such elements "more like a comic book, and less like a dramatic novel".
I've read quite a lot of fantasy fiction, and I would have said that slavery and rape are relatively rare in the books that I've read. Madness too, really. War - well, war is pretty common, and I have to question if it isn't a bit of a red herring in this thread. (Are people in the BoVD saying they would never include a war in their game, even in the background?)
So I think it would be more accurate to say that such gaming is more like high fantasy, than like dark fantasy. And a lot of people happen to like high fantasy.
Now, I have to say that I personally do enjoy dark or gritty fantasy novels, like those by Glen Cook and Steven Erikson. But as a very inexperienced GM I don't know if I'd be ready to tackle madness or rape (of a PC) in the game. For the campaign I am planning, war will be pretty prominent, and having the villain sell the PCs into slavery in the orcish salt mines if they discover the truth too soon was something I was considering.
I guess I got a bit pissed off by your comments that games which aren't gritty are like a cartoon or a comic.
There is plenty of room between those two styles.I don't think you have to make a game extremely gritty in order to elevate a game above dungeon crawling. All that's needed is some PCs who have plans and ambitions, and NPCs - villainous or not - who have contrary ones. To a patriot, an foreign agent is an opponent. To anyone whose job is retrieving things (thieves, archaeologists, "finders"... dungeoncrawlers too), the people who set up an ambush and steal all the players' hard-earned loot are definitely going to raise the players' ire. To someone in love, a romantic rival is an opponent of sorts. It could be the students of a rival martial arts academy, or soldiers in the Cardinal's Guard... and so on.
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Buttercup
Princess of Florin
Interesting thread!
Slavery has figured heavily in both campaigns I've run. In the online campaign (now defunct) there was an evil empire that sent gangs of slavers out across the lands 'harvesting' anyone they could capture. Also, the elves in this campaign had, in the past, deliberately bred with humans, although it wasn't usually rape, so that they would have a steady supply of half elven slaves. In my present campaign I included slavery and drug addiction in an early adventure. I haven't decided if the PCs will encounter more slavery or not.
As for madness, I've never used it, although it's an interesting plot device. I'm sure I will incorporate a mad king or some such eventually.
I haven't used war either, although I've been wanting to. I've been thinking about how I might incorporate it into my current campaign, but don't see a way, presently. I do have an indigenous population group that is hostile and dangerous, but their behavior is more along the lines of terrorism, infiltration and banditry than out and out war.
Slavery has figured heavily in both campaigns I've run. In the online campaign (now defunct) there was an evil empire that sent gangs of slavers out across the lands 'harvesting' anyone they could capture. Also, the elves in this campaign had, in the past, deliberately bred with humans, although it wasn't usually rape, so that they would have a steady supply of half elven slaves. In my present campaign I included slavery and drug addiction in an early adventure. I haven't decided if the PCs will encounter more slavery or not.
As for madness, I've never used it, although it's an interesting plot device. I'm sure I will incorporate a mad king or some such eventually.
I haven't used war either, although I've been wanting to. I've been thinking about how I might incorporate it into my current campaign, but don't see a way, presently. I do have an indigenous population group that is hostile and dangerous, but their behavior is more along the lines of terrorism, infiltration and banditry than out and out war.
SHARK
First Post
Greetings!
Gnomeworks:
Well, you certainly sound like you have a very good attitude about it Gnomeworks! Having the passion to be dramatic, thorough, and realistic is good, and I think will only serve to not only make you a better Game Master, but will also increase the value and enjoyment of playing in your campaigns with your friends, especially over time. It takes time, passion, and attention to detail to work these kinds of themes into the game, and in the long run, I have found them to be very rewarding!
You also sound quite mature--especially so for 15 years old. Strangely, I have found that a number of teenagers are far more worldly and balanced about such themes than numerous adults. It's funny how teenagers--supposedly the one's that according to many adults are so fragile and will be horribly damaged by being exposed to such themes are much more in control and less hysterical about the subject matter than some adults. Wierd, huh? I applaud your efforts and your desire to excel in such a manner!
I'm also glad that you are enjoying the thread! I have been reading many of the BOVD threads over the last few weeks or so, and so many of them get off on tangents, and get mired in senseless bickering by *adults* that have seemed to forget that we are talking about a GAME here, you know? I was having a conversation with my wife about many of the threads about the BOVD, and it seems to me that to a great extent, many people are making entirely wrong assumptions about what exactly is in the book, and even when they know what is in the work, they take off on some topic where they seem to be pouring far more into the text and the ideas than what is really called for. They seem to fail to understand the deeper issues or miss salient points that are important.
Take your time, and make the effort to weave into your games various threads like the ones discussed here, and I think you will begin to enjoy a greater degree of realism, depth, drama, and verissimillitude in your games. Of course, the fact that you have gathered together a group that is entirely too immature to deal with such topics is unfortunate, but I trust that you will find ways to bring them along, or integrate new players who are more mature, if that is your desire. Your rational, open-minded thinking and willingness to look at topics from different perspectives is refreshing, and quite welcome. I would hope that your players can appreciate such traits in you as well!
GreyIguana:
I'm glad you like the thread as well GreyIguana! Your giant society sounds interesting. Have your players met these giants before? How detailed have you made this interesting culture? How have your players responded to genocide in the campaign? I like the Caligula character in your campaign! What a bastard! I'm sure the player enjoyed bringing him down, heh?
NooneofConsequence:
Your "Sisterhood of The White Rose" sounds quite intriguing! Would you care to post the prestige class that you talked about? That sounds very cool. Your wife is a social worker, heh? I imagine she knows a lot about the darker side of humanity. How long has she been playing D&D with you? How does she react to the mature themes that you include in your campaigns? She sounds like a good player, too!
Buttercup:
Hey there Buttercup! Indeed, breeding for half-elf slaves is wicked! I love it. I'm sure your players were enthralled with such a plot, huh? Mad kings are good! Might I suggest that you pick up a good psychology book that discusses pathologies and aberrant psychology to assist you? Such detailed research can bring a great degree of power to your characterization and to the plot as well. You might be surprised to learn about the breathtaking variety of different neurosis and pathologies that exist. Certainly, while tragic and troubling in a real world sense, they can make for great stories in coping with such problems, whether in a favorite NPC, a villain, or even a player character. Great stuff!
CCamfield:
Well, no "Red Herring" at all, really. War is a dramatic backdrop wherein much of the aforementioned topics take root, and it also serves as a springboard for a great deal of trauma and the perpetration of horrendous atrocities and barbarities. Thus, in a variety of applications, seguing and overlapping with the other themes.
The same can be said for torture and so on. The thread was generally intended as a philosophical discussion, taking such previous commentary as a springboard for inspiration, as opposed to a strict point-for-point quotation and debate.
In thinking about my "comic-book" comparisson, well, and this is important--do you think comic-book conventions are necessarily *bad*? In thinking about comic-book conventions, traditionally, they have embraced a lack of killing, the good guys always win, no mature themes, and so on. That is a traditional comic-book philosophy. From that, with many members commenting on BOVD, their philosophies seemed to parallel such comic-book philosophy, as might your own. That isn't a personal attack, and it isn't degrading you personally, or anyone who embraces a comic-book philosophy. The distinctions, however, are very real, and factual. Certainly, one can have a fine game embracing comic-book philosophy, but, by definition, that style of game *won't* have the themes in it that we are discussing, correct? Furthermore, though the topic at hand is exploring such, I am somewhat puzzled at the *vehemence* and adamant attitudes that some who embrace such a philosophy have taken in regards to including--or not--such mature themes in a campaign. When the game centers chiefly on the mass slaughter and looting of other sentient creatures, and the pursuit of wealth and power almost without restraint, I find it mystifying how the inclusion of rape or slavery, or torture, as plot elements in the campaign and as character-development points, is somehow beyond the pale.
Likewise, in a similar vein, cartoons have a similar underlying mechanic at work like comic-books, where "evil" or the opposition, is often seen a a sort of nebulous form, with goals that can seem contrived and shallow after a time. They are always after world domination, or they are seeking to kill Bugs Bunny or Barny--why?--just because! Or obviously!--because the bumblebee team is evil, that's why!
Certainly, I'm not saying that "Slavery, Rape, Madness, and War!" are the be-all and end-all to plot development, but I do make the assertion that if you subscribe to rigidly sanitizing your campaign from virtually every kind of real human conflict and making sure that there is never any kind of potentially difficult or adult-themed element in the game, that that does, philosophically, have more in common with the cartoonish/comic-book philosophy, and does not usually have the same scope of depth and drama that a campaign might have that doesn't do so.
Some people just don't like to even think of such topics--that's ok. Others, as some have mentioned, have people in their groups that have actually been raped. For them I can understand that. I can also see why one would not want to include such mature themes when playing with children, or with young teenagers. I wouldn't either. I do wonder what inhibits people from including such themes though when such conditions don't exist though. That's all really!
No need for anyone to get "pissed off" my friend! Just having a conversation! If in doubt, instead of some people assuming the worst in someone, it's always good to just engage the person in conversation and dialogue! Most of the time, people are not intentionally trying to be offensive, or to hurt your feelings, you know? I certainly don't have that intention. Just trying to have an interesting conversation, and get a handle and a better understanding on different themes, and some people's problems, objections, or difficulties with handling such themes.
Just some thoughts!
Ace: Players that are immature? Damn my friend! Your games are like tabletop Diablo? LOL! That made me laugh so much! I can just see you saying such too Ace! "I feel your pain!" Well, I certainly wish you the best in finding a new, more mature group to play with! Hopefully some people that are more capable than just a game of tabletop Diablo!
I have a friend who uncannily seems to have very Diablo-like attitudes and approaches to the game, too! He always makes me laugh when I needle him about D&D not being a damn video game! He insists that computer games like Neverwinter Nights and so on are roleplaying games, and the thing he doesn't see is that he often brings certain assumptions from playing the video game into the D&D game, and they certainly don't mix, especially in my campaign world! Then, because of these video-game assumptions that he makes while playing D&D on occasion cause him to get hammered, or to miss out on something, or make the wrong assumptions about something, he then gets all frustrated on me because I don't run my D&D campaign like the video-game world! We laugh and have fun with it, but the whole video-game assumptions can indeed be frustrating. I'm glad he isn't too steeped in the video games, apparently like your players seem to hopelessly be swallowed up by! I wish you the best Ace!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Gnomeworks:
Well, you certainly sound like you have a very good attitude about it Gnomeworks! Having the passion to be dramatic, thorough, and realistic is good, and I think will only serve to not only make you a better Game Master, but will also increase the value and enjoyment of playing in your campaigns with your friends, especially over time. It takes time, passion, and attention to detail to work these kinds of themes into the game, and in the long run, I have found them to be very rewarding!
You also sound quite mature--especially so for 15 years old. Strangely, I have found that a number of teenagers are far more worldly and balanced about such themes than numerous adults. It's funny how teenagers--supposedly the one's that according to many adults are so fragile and will be horribly damaged by being exposed to such themes are much more in control and less hysterical about the subject matter than some adults. Wierd, huh? I applaud your efforts and your desire to excel in such a manner!
I'm also glad that you are enjoying the thread! I have been reading many of the BOVD threads over the last few weeks or so, and so many of them get off on tangents, and get mired in senseless bickering by *adults* that have seemed to forget that we are talking about a GAME here, you know? I was having a conversation with my wife about many of the threads about the BOVD, and it seems to me that to a great extent, many people are making entirely wrong assumptions about what exactly is in the book, and even when they know what is in the work, they take off on some topic where they seem to be pouring far more into the text and the ideas than what is really called for. They seem to fail to understand the deeper issues or miss salient points that are important.
Take your time, and make the effort to weave into your games various threads like the ones discussed here, and I think you will begin to enjoy a greater degree of realism, depth, drama, and verissimillitude in your games.
Of course, the fact that you have gathered together a group that is entirely too immature to deal with such topics is unfortunate, but I trust that you will find ways to bring them along, or integrate new players who are more mature, if that is your desire. Your rational, open-minded thinking and willingness to look at topics from different perspectives is refreshing, and quite welcome. I would hope that your players can appreciate such traits in you as well!GreyIguana:
I'm glad you like the thread as well GreyIguana! Your giant society sounds interesting. Have your players met these giants before? How detailed have you made this interesting culture? How have your players responded to genocide in the campaign? I like the Caligula character in your campaign! What a bastard!
I'm sure the player enjoyed bringing him down, heh? NooneofConsequence:
Your "Sisterhood of The White Rose" sounds quite intriguing! Would you care to post the prestige class that you talked about? That sounds very cool.
Your wife is a social worker, heh? I imagine she knows a lot about the darker side of humanity. How long has she been playing D&D with you? How does she react to the mature themes that you include in your campaigns? She sounds like a good player, too!Buttercup:
Hey there Buttercup! Indeed, breeding for half-elf slaves is wicked!
I love it. I'm sure your players were enthralled with such a plot, huh? Mad kings are good! Might I suggest that you pick up a good psychology book that discusses pathologies and aberrant psychology to assist you? Such detailed research can bring a great degree of power to your characterization and to the plot as well. You might be surprised to learn about the breathtaking variety of different neurosis and pathologies that exist. Certainly, while tragic and troubling in a real world sense, they can make for great stories in coping with such problems, whether in a favorite NPC, a villain, or even a player character. Great stuff! CCamfield:
Well, no "Red Herring" at all, really. War is a dramatic backdrop wherein much of the aforementioned topics take root, and it also serves as a springboard for a great deal of trauma and the perpetration of horrendous atrocities and barbarities. Thus, in a variety of applications, seguing and overlapping with the other themes.
The same can be said for torture and so on. The thread was generally intended as a philosophical discussion, taking such previous commentary as a springboard for inspiration, as opposed to a strict point-for-point quotation and debate.
In thinking about my "comic-book" comparisson, well, and this is important--do you think comic-book conventions are necessarily *bad*? In thinking about comic-book conventions, traditionally, they have embraced a lack of killing, the good guys always win, no mature themes, and so on. That is a traditional comic-book philosophy. From that, with many members commenting on BOVD, their philosophies seemed to parallel such comic-book philosophy, as might your own. That isn't a personal attack, and it isn't degrading you personally, or anyone who embraces a comic-book philosophy. The distinctions, however, are very real, and factual. Certainly, one can have a fine game embracing comic-book philosophy, but, by definition, that style of game *won't* have the themes in it that we are discussing, correct? Furthermore, though the topic at hand is exploring such, I am somewhat puzzled at the *vehemence* and adamant attitudes that some who embrace such a philosophy have taken in regards to including--or not--such mature themes in a campaign. When the game centers chiefly on the mass slaughter and looting of other sentient creatures, and the pursuit of wealth and power almost without restraint, I find it mystifying how the inclusion of rape or slavery, or torture, as plot elements in the campaign and as character-development points, is somehow beyond the pale.
Likewise, in a similar vein, cartoons have a similar underlying mechanic at work like comic-books, where "evil" or the opposition, is often seen a a sort of nebulous form, with goals that can seem contrived and shallow after a time. They are always after world domination, or they are seeking to kill Bugs Bunny or Barny--why?--just because!
Or obviously!--because the bumblebee team is evil, that's why! Certainly, I'm not saying that "Slavery, Rape, Madness, and War!" are the be-all and end-all to plot development, but I do make the assertion that if you subscribe to rigidly sanitizing your campaign from virtually every kind of real human conflict and making sure that there is never any kind of potentially difficult or adult-themed element in the game, that that does, philosophically, have more in common with the cartoonish/comic-book philosophy, and does not usually have the same scope of depth and drama that a campaign might have that doesn't do so.
Some people just don't like to even think of such topics--that's ok. Others, as some have mentioned, have people in their groups that have actually been raped. For them I can understand that. I can also see why one would not want to include such mature themes when playing with children, or with young teenagers. I wouldn't either. I do wonder what inhibits people from including such themes though when such conditions don't exist though. That's all really!
No need for anyone to get "pissed off" my friend! Just having a conversation! If in doubt, instead of some people assuming the worst in someone, it's always good to just engage the person in conversation and dialogue! Most of the time, people are not intentionally trying to be offensive, or to hurt your feelings, you know? I certainly don't have that intention. Just trying to have an interesting conversation, and get a handle and a better understanding on different themes, and some people's problems, objections, or difficulties with handling such themes.
Just some thoughts!
Ace: Players that are immature? Damn my friend! Your games are like tabletop Diablo?
LOL! That made me laugh so much! I can just see you saying such too Ace! "I feel your pain!" Well, I certainly wish you the best in finding a new, more mature group to play with! Hopefully some people that are more capable than just a game of tabletop Diablo!I have a friend who uncannily seems to have very Diablo-like attitudes and approaches to the game, too! He always makes me laugh when I needle him about D&D not being a damn video game! He insists that computer games like Neverwinter Nights and so on are roleplaying games, and the thing he doesn't see is that he often brings certain assumptions from playing the video game into the D&D game, and they certainly don't mix, especially in my campaign world! Then, because of these video-game assumptions that he makes while playing D&D on occasion cause him to get hammered, or to miss out on something, or make the wrong assumptions about something, he then gets all frustrated on me because I don't run my D&D campaign like the video-game world!
We laugh and have fun with it, but the whole video-game assumptions can indeed be frustrating. I'm glad he isn't too steeped in the video games, apparently like your players seem to hopelessly be swallowed up by! I wish you the best Ace!Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
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