Slavery, Rape, Madness and War!

Note: Please cut out [Edit for clarity] unless really, positively, necessary[/edit] the comments about contemporary atrocities (e.g., machine-gunning teenagers or whatever) from now on, everybody; we are talking about D&D here - not contemporary real-world stuff.
[Edit for clarity]See, more recent atrocities (up to and including WW2, at the very least) are more personal - and thus, can provoke flame wars more easily.[/edit]
Also, the ancient times and the middle ages are better examples for D&D anyway - so let's use them instead. :)

Kibo said:
Darkness, the world is filled with small people, and petty, grasping tyrants. So what. They don't make good villains either, minor villains at most.
That may be so, but I'm not necessarily talking about them.

Being a rapist, torturer, child-killer or whatever has little to do with a person's combat prowess.

Many Roman emperors (and other military leaders over the ages) ordered - or committed - unimaginable atrocities. But, other than you (apparently, at least), I would consider an RPG campaign that has the ultimate goal of deposing your fantasy world's equivalent of, say, Caligula or Nero (etc.) quite interesting.

Also, many military leaders of old were rapists, torturers, murdered their own relatives, or killed their enemies' children. Yet more than a few of them also were skilled warriors and leaders.

And know what? Their enemies probably feared them.
So tell me - what do you have against using such characters as the villians of your campaign? I can see it if you despise them, but I can't imagine why you would consider them (all of them, that is) unworthy enemies.
They are weak, and they know it.
No. Some are, of course, but others are not - and might even be megalomaniacs. And as for them actually being weak, refer to what I wrote above. :)
A villain that knows he's powerful, knows his opponants are powerful, and stacks the deck wisely doesn't need to resort to pointless acts which would undoubtably undermine his power base.
I can't imagine that that's a correct conclusion... Could you explain that a bit more clearly? :)
It's a cheap, emotional ploy that crappy story tellers sometimes use instead of more lasting emotional content. If you can't evoke any real feeling, just be shocking. It's the MTV's Jack@** of drama. I think better of myself. (It might not always be true, but I DO think it.)
I totally agree that that happens, but I also have to point out that these despicable practices don't exist merely because of crappy storytellers; not only do they exist in reality, but there are also many good authors/movie-makers/etc. who use them appropriately and "effectively" (for their story, that is). Maybe you just haven't seen these yet, but I certainly have. :)
 
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A good villain would be a fantasy, sorcerous Genghis Khan.

Leading a juggernaut of an army. Pillaging, raping and then slaughtering whole villages including the cattle. Pushing hordes of prisoners ahead of them as they charge city walls so their bodies might fill the moat. Using powerful enchantments to rip off the very name and history of a country so that it wouldn't even be remembered by anyone save by the unlucky survivor who would be able to do nothing but watch their culture die in a single generation.*

They would bear their enemies a simple choice; Surrender or be anihiliated. If you fight, it will be in vain. There will not even be children left to remember you. There won't even be anything left to remember.

The opposition;divided feudal states, distrustful of each other lead by a quaking nobility that would rather surrender.

My, isn't it the perfect theater for heroes to rise!

*shamelessly ripped from Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay
 

Here are some things that have been used in history. I don't think many DM's woul dbe willing to use them in agme though.

Rape as a social tool. During the early part of the Roman Empire, the Romans lacked enough women to survive, so they held a large feast to the surrounding tribes, at the appointed time they grabbed all the women they could retreated to their fort.

Rape has also been used to subjugate warring ethnic groups, usually where the men were forced to watch.

There was usually with large armies a troop that followed them in ths were enslaved or captured women who were used as prostitutes.

Rape also used to be used by various groups as a way on punishing a woman's infedelity. It was also used during the middle-ages as a way of passing out sentence (not dependent on sex either).

Slaves, prisoners, and captured soldiers were used for menial labour (creating fortresses, palaces, and bridges), for mining. Children to old men. They were also used to soak up attacks from opposing armies. They were fed very little and most died of even simple injuries for lack of anykind of medical care.

Slaves were also used to train troops, making soldiers get used to the carnage of war.

In a fantasy setting I ould see the use of thousands of slaves as sacrifices for ceremonies.

War involving the razing of the entire country side (armies need food, and the only way on getting it was taking it from the peasants). Sowing salt into the lands of the enemy, when retreating. Of using disease as a weapon (throwing diseased and dead people or livestock by catapult into a besieged city).

I think madness sort of gets defined there as well without having to drag in Galigula, Alexander the Great (who married his sister), or the Mongol Horde (who succeede in leveling Baghdad, estimated to be only having a few million people living there at the time).
 

OK, now back to fantasy...

1) Slavery isn't common in the main campaign area, being outlawed by the three of the four major city-states, and mostly outlawed in the fourth. It certainly still exists, but its not for labor. The decadant rich of one prominent city-state enjoy flouting the law by keeping "indentured servants" who have no chance of leaving their employ. Sexual slavery makes up the rest of trade, usually facilitated by a particular drug {soulsdeath} that deadens human will {anyone caught possessing it assumed to be a slaver}.

2) Rape.. Can't bring myself to DM that.... exactly. One plotline featured a PC's wife who was assualted telepathically by a powerful, aristocratic mage while at the Grand Opera. The PC's saw the result of the attack, but none of the details... The PC's only got a few sketchy particulars from 2 other women who were similarly attacked.

3) The Amber House, an asylum for the mentally ill children of the wealthy figured prominently into one plotline. Nefarious mages found a use for children afflicted by a certain kind of catatonia, essentially using the insdies of their skulls as undetectable places for magical experimentation...

4) War? Only a Cold War between demons from outside the universe and sentient races of the world who are convinced that a force required to destroy the demons would also destroy the very fabric of the world...
 

More about cowardice? Fine.

Some clarification first though. I thought it obvious from the way I wrote it, but I intended to accuse Dinkledog of trolling me.

The people I'm calling cowards are choosing targets that they know won't fight back. It's seems almost painfully obvious. Sasha was killed not because Konig wanted him dead, but because Konig couldn't stand up to Vassili. Konig wanted Vassili dead, but was too weak. So he killed someone who he could kill, someone defenseless as to incite Vassili to fight Konig on his ground. He killed a child because he was afraid of a man. I'll also note, again, that Konig commited suicide long before his actual death in the movie. There was nothing brave in anything his character did. It's like saying Hitler was brave sending children and imaginary divisions to stop the allied advance along the easter front. After all he killed himself in the end. He was a jackal faced with a lion.

Ahh and nero. A nutty emporer who's lead poisoning had touched him with madness and who's impossible wealth and privilege graced him with his now ledgendary apathy. Why I use Burning ROM proudly myself. Again a small terrified tyrant. Few emporers of Rome were as feared as Rome's army. There is a distinction. They would be minor villains. They have resources, but no resolve. Allies, of indeterminate reliability, but no strength beyond that which is furnished by others or by title. Everyone has their own preferences of course.

I like major villains that are closer to Caesar than Nero. Czar Nicholas, while somewhat of a tyrant, was completely oblivious to this fact of his rule, and pretty much just liked spending his time watching his grandchildren rollerskate. Putting him to the sword, while understandable sentiment, seems much more tragedy than justice. Stalin, now there's a villain just crying out for a violent end.

For my part my major villains are pretty diverse: dark gods, malevolent dragons, epic curses, forces of nature, something fast and invisible, a mad wizard, and at least one guy just trying to get along who thought he was an anti-hero at worst (Thank you Gundam). Small tyrants of great resources occasionally make an appearence as annoying obsticles, but as villains, I suppose early on they'd be suitable, but I usually have a more interesting idea I want to try. On the list of villain choices a scared guy with a bunch of stuff, staff and or money is just pretty far down. Somewhere behind the general of his armies who harbors his own secret ambitions.

As moderators are so fond of pointing out, it's not that there aren't any real world analogs that one could point to were it not verboten, it's not that they can't make interesting stories. It just that given it's fantasy, why should I constrain myself to such limitations? Why doesn't James Bond change jobs and become a forensic accountant and crush nefferious secret organizations with a red pencil, and calls to financial institutions? I also don't play The Slums of Beverly Hills RPG. While comming of age movies are occasionally good stories, they aren't the ones I tell well. (And I wasn't aware that anyone machine gunned a schoolyard anywhere, hence the reason I chose that example.)

I just like more action. And while I'll occasionally have an element of intrigue, it doesn't dominate play. What does isn't action, it's the development of relationships for PC's to the world they live in, the NPC's they know. That's what adds the prerequisit emotional content for a great climactic battle. The PC's have relationships that are more than just an items scrawled on paper, its something that's really at risk, that everyone can feel. I like that "at stake" knot in the stomach, like you just bet this months rent on the next throw of the dice. And if the death of the villain, or at least his ultimate defeat is something of a formality, that risk isn't there, and what there is isn't as great. Now if actual content proves ellusive, sure a little shock might suffice. Assuming no one sees it for the ploy it is. Even when done well, I don't think it substitutes for putting everything good you have at stake willingly (but with great reservation), and it still diminishes the villains. Heroes can only be as great as the villains they defeat. That's why you don't have Darth Vader the rapist. It wouldn't make him any more evil, nor more dangerous, just less impressive, less menacing, more petty, and smaller. (I should probably make some sort of premptive strike against the literalists, and fans of MPAA, but they're beyond help).

When you've got a player throwing down with a foe you couldn't imagine them beating on their best day, where his friend, and fiance that even the player feels a little something for are watching, helpless to intervine. The characters emptied his bag of tricks just to stay alive to that point, and your superhuman villain has him dead to rights for his next attack which will undoubtably finish it (in an exceptionally brutal manner). You prepare to make your roll, and say, "Damn it's been sweet. Sorry, dude, it just not the way it worked out this time." Then you roll a 1, right in front of him, buying him a chance at another 3.2 seconds of life. And somehow, beyond all preconcieved laws of probability the player manages to not only live, but to kill the villain, after you appologized! Man that's why I play at all. I can't write stories that sweet, I wouldn't have been able to suspend my disbelief.

I like my villains to be a level of badass such that my players respect them after they're dead. People like those being discussed can't command a level of respect while they're alive, let alone after. Part of that is we believe what we believe and adhere to our own values which might be quite anachronistic. It's not a history lesson, its a story and a game, and the baggage people bring to it, needs to be factored in. While a brutal tyrant might put a town, or what have you, to the torch as an object lesson for others who might resist his will, and in the process kill many innocents children etc, he wouldn't give specific instructions to kill all the children, or even one mans child. Likewise he wouldn't seek to slay the child of some hero, making sure the hero was away to avoid confrontation. If a bad guy is clever, resourceful, there's so many ways to stack the deck. If Konig is as bad as your villains get. I pity you and your players.

Look at the modern armies that rape and pillage, remember you're not allowed (I just want to pretend I'm a moderator). Who would you fear more, they, little more than under paid mercenaries, or the terrifiying might of a modern, motivated, professional, volunteer army? I don't think I need to get into any specifics, because motivated volunteer armies have been carrying the day for QUITE a while. The people serving in the armies of my villains do so through a mixture of greed, fear, and admiration. But I'm also something of a fan of supervillainous cabals with master plans bent on world domination, or something equally grand and conventionally unattainable.

If you're a motivated individual in some great army, and your leader though brutal, and not exactly Mr. Sensitive, is likely the ticket to weath, power, fame, and oh yeah the winning side, some things you could over look. But if he thought raping people was a gas, and killing children was something to pass the time while sipping a dessert wine, or other activities equally abhorrent to your nature, he's not so charismatic. That aura of command just evaporates, all that's left is fear. An unreliable motivator at best. Now this might not be true if the end you were searching for was the conclusion of some ethnic confilict (humans against the elves! Tricked ya) and a scorched earth policy was the order of the day, maybe the raping and whatnot would be a bonus. But again, mundane. My villains have bigger goals that the extermination of some tribe with different colors and funny hats. We think it's stupid and petty on CNN, that's because it is. People who let their fear rule them are weak. They make weak, although perhaps large armies, they make weak leaders, and they're often ruled by tyrants who are more affraid of them than they are of him. While my villains may certainly fear, and if my heros know what's good for them they certainly do, but they don't let it rule them. They may heed its warning, but the decision to act and what the content of some act might be isn't made from a place as base as fear. No one rapes or commits other BoVD acts because they are powerful, the do so to pretend they are. My villains. They're actually powerful. And they know it. Should you demand they prove it, they'll leave that for a conversation between you and what ever greets you in the afterlife. A little something from them to you, Sasha's could hardly make their point more convincing than that. Hey, but maybe you'll win?
 

Kibo said:

The people I'm calling cowards are choosing targets that they know won't fight back. It's seems almost painfully obvious. Sasha was killed not because Konig wanted him dead, but because Konig couldn't stand up to Vassili.

Well your definition of cowardice is just different than mine. We can't argue over the actions of König if we don't have the same definition.

I'll remind you that the dictionary definition of Cowardice is a lack of courage and resolution.

I'd out that by your logic one could argue that the US army is filled with cowards since in the past 20 years they've only fought battles against enemy who can't put up a serious fight.

Before you flame me; of course the US army ain't cowardly. The fact that their target in the past two decades have been weak doesn't say anything about the ability and willingness of these soldiers to fight battles against terrible odds if it came down to that.

Similarly (but not identically; let's not extend the analogy between the US army and a Nazi sniper ;) ) , König willingness to kill a child doesn't in the least diminish his willingness to fight an elite soldier. Frankly, I'm a little dumbfounded that you argue that König was affraid of Zaitsev. If anything, he was the more savvy and skillful warrior and Vassili admit's as much during the movie. In the end, Vassilli wins through the sacrifice of his friend, not because he's smarter and more skilled than König.
 

SHARK said:
Greetings!


Ace: Players that are immature? Damn my friend! Your games are like tabletop Diablo?:) LOL!:) That made me laugh so much! I can just see you saying such too Ace! "I feel your pain!":) Well, I certainly wish you the best in finding a new, more mature group to play with! Hopefully some people that are more capable than just a game of tabletop Diablo!

SNIP

I wish you the best Ace!:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Thanks! When I return to the game table it will be on my terms and no other. Until then I have the web for my gaming fix :)
 

Mal Malenkirk said:
I'll remind you that the dictionary definition of Cowardice is a lack of courage and resolution.

I'd out that by your logic one could argue that the US army is filled with cowards since in the past 20 years they've only fought battles against enemy who can't put up a serious fight.

Before you flame me; of course the US army ain't cowardly. The fact that their target in the past two decades have been weak doesn't say anything about the ability and willingness of these soldiers to fight battles against terrible odds if it came down to that.
So now you're arguing that somehow someone who kills a person with no ability to fight back, like a child, has any measure of courage? My dictionary says courage is the capacity one has to counquer their fear and or despair. I'm certainly going to cower at the sight of all the horrible villains who choke back their crippling fear of toddlers so that they might follow through with their grizzly task.

And by my logic, one would observe that the enemies the US has faced in recent years were weak, and could have put of a serious fight, but lacked the conviction to do so. It's not like they didn't have the hardware, or training. They lacked one thing, to the last man, personal conviction. The Iraqi army in 1991 was the 4th largest standing army in the world, battle hardened, and in possesion of 3rd generation air craft vs what might be called the 3.5 generation F-15, and modern main battle tanks. They lacked leadership and resolve. (One might note to two things I think a truly great villain needs) A professional, motivated, volunteer army in action. The weapon that ultimately wins wars has never been anything other than the guy in the uniform. I try to keep that aspect, of viable professionalism, and real leadership alive with my villains.

It explains why their henchment are motivated, and strong rather that villains off somewhere with their own grand scheme. It just doesn't follow that the man on the line follows out of fear alone. A rule of fear by itself would breed treachery, and waste. How could any organization be effective if it had to devote the bulk of its resources to policeing itself? How could that man on the line be trusted to fulfill his duties. Fear just isn't enough. Even the tyrants that worked had to have something else. To some extent this can be mitigated in fanstasy through thralls, undead, or some other mindless foot soldier (and they and their kin do play a part in maintaining whatever status quo I've got going). But their mindless, they don't adapt. Which while it does add a certain element of terror, it's also a little repetative, and still leaves the demand for an effective more motivated fighting force. Again my most typical way of getting over the organization hurdle is via a small group of villains with a plan. Or just villains that don't have interests on that level and are closer to forces of nature.

It does ammuse me that you consider a despot's soldier with modern weaponry every bit as threatening as a small child. I, however, avoid such tenuous equivalencies. I would appreciate it if you avoided attributing them to me. :)
 
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Hi, I'm a little late to the thread, but I have something really, really interesting I've noticed. All the discussion about rape has been about <i>women</i> being raped. I'm not sure what that says, but it strikes me as saying something.
 

Kibo said:

So now you're arguing that somehow someone who kills a person with no ability to fight back, like a child, has any measure of courage? My dictionary says courage is the capacity one has to counquer their fear and or despair. I'm certainly going to cower at the sight of all the horrible villains who choke back their crippling fear of toddlers so that they might follow through with their grizzly task.



It explains why their henchment are motivated, and strong rather that villains off somewhere with their own grand scheme. It just doesn't follow that the man on the line follows out of fear alone. A rule of fear by itself would breed treachery, and waste. How could any organization be effective if it had to devote the bulk of its resources to policeing itself? How could that man on the line be trusted to fulfill his duties. Fear just isn't enough. Even the tyrants that worked had to have something else. To some extent this can be mitigated in fanstasy through thralls, undead, or some other mindless foot soldier (and they and their kin do play a part in maintaining whatever status quo I've got going). But their mindless, they don't adapt. Which while it does add a certain element of terror, it's also a little repetative, and still leaves the demand for an effective more motivated fighting force. Again my most typical way of getting over the organization hurdle is via a small group of villains with a plan. Or just villains that don't have interests on that level and are closer to forces of nature.

It does ammuse me that you consider a despot's soldier with modern weaponry every bit as threatening as a small child. I, however, avoid such tenuous equivalencies. I would appreciate it if you avoided attributing them to me. :)

OK, I've been sitting out of this part of the thread, but now I've got to jump in.

Firstly, I have a totally different reading of the killing of Sasha in "The Enemy at the Gate". Sasha is killed because he is a spy, passing information on the German sniper back to the Russian side. This is a standard act in covert war, a spy you cannot use or turn must be destroyed. The fact that Sasha is a child is why the German sniper urges him to stay home and not keep getting involved. When Sasha shows that he will continue to spy on the Germans, the sniper kills him. Cowardice - or bravery - don't enter into it.


Secondly, fear is widely considered, in real politik, as the most reliable motivator of human beings. Machiavelli rated fear better even than love (patriotism, loyalty etc) as a motivator for leaders to use. Napoleon insisted that soldiers must fear their commanders more than the enemy.

As for an organisation which grows while being controlled by fear alon, may I offer the example of La Cosa Nostra - the Mafia.
 

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