Slavery, Rape, Madness and War!

[David Argall]

Nuaghty

War - too large scale for the game most of the time. Our heros kill a troll = big news in peace time = very small print on back pages of home paper only in wartime when the front page is about batallions of trolls being fought.
We want the party to be the center of activity, not a footnote.

Madness - not very game useful.

Rape - the ladies often get upset about this. Perhaps a little close to reality for them [tho the 'statistics' showing a high chance of being raped are generally bogus, often counting as rape any case where she didn't say "Please".] However, it is of the right scale and was/is quite common. It should happen if the players won't make a fuss.

Slavery - definitely should be present, and in large scale. As history, it simply was common. As game element, it gives the party something to fight, and an additional low status they can achieve. [It also gives the evil ones an excuse not to TPK the party. Selling them as slaves makes some gold.]
Oh, incidentally, the raping of slaves was by no means common. For starters, it ranks way up there as a way to cause the lass to run away. You want to risk a few thousand gold for the sake of a silver piece? And of course, it's hard enough to keep your wife from finding out when the lass helps you hide your fun, much less when she is screaming.
Nor was it particularly necessary. Women like to marry up, and the slaveowner ranks at the top as far as the slave is concerned. Play with the boss and you can sleep in and get the soft work, and your kids get the good jobs. Lots of slaves actively pursued their masters.
Rape happened all too often to suit the slave women, but it was still rather rare.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Re: Nuaghty

War - too large scale for the game most of the time. Our heros kill a troll = big news in peace time = very small print on back pages of home paper only in wartime when the front page is about batallions of trolls being fought.

If we're talking Fantasy Planar War 3 (FPW3 ), I agree with you. Unless the heroes are epic, they'll be a drop in the ocean.

If we're talking a standard medival war, OTOH... An army of 10 000 in a feudal context would be a freaking huge army.

1,200 invader VS 500 defender entrenched in a fortified city is a more likely scenario. In in that context, a 5th level party of PC, representing the elite 1% of the defender can play a major role in the outcome of the war.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

RE: War

If we're talking Fantasy Planar War 3 (FPW3 ), I agree with you. Unless the heroes are epic, they'll be a drop in the ocean.

If we're talking a standard medival war, OTOH... An army of 10 000 in a feudal context would be a freaking huge army.

1,200 invader VS 500 defender entrenched in a fortified city is a more likely scenario. In in that context, a 5th level party of PC, representing the elite 1% of the defender can play a major role in the outcome of the war.

In what historical battle is this?
Here's an interesting quote from the crusades....

(Antioch, about February 10, 1098. During siege of Antioch)
For they had beard of the battle and were hastening to our aid. The number of the Turks was estimated at 260,000. All of our army attacked them, killed many and routed the rest.

That's one battle.
Take a good look at medieval and ancient history.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Re: RE: War

That's one battle.
Take a good look at medieval and ancient history.

That's not just one battle. That's the freaking Crusades!

When studying 20th century warfare, should we accept operation Overlord as the archetypical battle of the era?

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

War

But not the WHOLE army of the Crusades.
Shall I bring out facts and figures on the Persian Conquests of Alexander the Great, or the Roman Legions? How about the Battle of Sparta? The War of the Roses? The Naval Conflicts of the English/Spanish/French? How about the Hordes of Ghengis Khan? The Huns? All of those were far more than 1,500 people.
1500 people would get you laughed at in medieval times.

Should all slavery in gaming references be based off of the inefficient Southern States of America design? What about England's Indentured Servitude, or the slavery the American Indians practiced, or the slavery of the serf fuedal system? And which fuedal system? Chinese? Japanese? Tsar? European?

And rape? In a world of magic or psionics, invading someone's mind would be a form of rape, would it not. More than a physical violation, this person has violated your very soul.

More things to think about when thinking of horrible things in a mediavel world where magic and psionics exist.

 

[AngelTears]

Re: Nuaghty

Originally posted by David Argall
Rape - the ladies often get upset about this. Perhaps a little close to reality for them [tho the 'statistics' showing a high chance of being raped are generally bogus, often counting as rape any case where she didn't say "Please".] However, it is of the right scale and was/is quite common. It should happen if the players won't make a fuss.

Just as a counterpoint and something obviously I should not say, since this is from my personal experinces, I have nearly been raped twice, once at knife point, the other by a stalker, who I have been told has gotten free on bail. I also work in a high risk profession, where rape is considered an occupational hazard.

When rape enters the campaign, either it is treated with the same respect I expect every other adult theme to be treated (one reason I stopped playing D&D in the first place), or I leave.

During the first adevnture of "The rings of Power", in which I play a formerly raped bard/illusionist, there was a scene with a NPC elf being raped by an ork warboss. I was about ready to pack my bags when I heard the giggles from the players. I warned them either they clean up their act, or I was gone. They did, in part. However, that left a permanent mark in my mind against that group.

But I have had these fights on what is an "adult theme" with everyone before.

-Angel Tears

 

[Agback]

Re: War

Shall I bring out facts and figures ... The War of the Roses?

Please do.

Should all slavery in gaming references be based off of the inefficient Southern States of America design?

Just as a matter of interest, slavery in my campaign is based on the model of Greek slavery of the Homeric Period, before:

(1) foreign slaves became common, and

(2) the practice of manumitting all household slaves at the age of thirty or after seven years servitude became established.

Regards,


Agback

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

Re: Nuaghty

Rape - the ladies often get upset about this. Perhaps a little close to reality for them [tho the 'statistics' showing a high chance of being raped are generally bogus, often counting as rape any case where she didn't say "Please".] However, it is of the right scale and was/is quite common. It should happen if the players won't make a fuss.

Man, if this quote is indicative of your attitude(s) to rape, you should leave it out of your campaign. It appears that you have little to no comprehension of the crime and its impact.

Slavery - definitely should be present, and in large scale. As history, it simply was common. As game element, it gives the party something to fight, and an additional low status they can achieve. [It also gives the evil ones an excuse not to TPK the party. Selling them as slaves makes some gold.]

I agree that fear of slavery (and not just death) adds to a campaign, giving it breadth and subtlety.

Oh, incidentally, the raping of slaves was by no means common. For starters, it ranks way up there as a way to cause the lass to run away. You want to risk a few thousand gold for the sake of a silver piece? And of course, it's hard enough to keep your wife from finding out when the lass helps you hide your fun, much less when she is screaming.
Nor was it particularly necessary. Women like to marry up, and the slaveowner ranks at the top as far as the slave is concerned. Play with the boss and you can sleep in and get the soft work, and your kids get the good jobs. Lots of slaves actively pursued their masters.
Rape happened all too often to suit the slave women, but it was still rather rare.

This analysis of slave rape in history shows an astonishing lack of thought. Rape of a slave may not have been an everyday occurence in most slave cultures, but to minimise it is unreal. We already have massive evidence that rape occurs, in the majority of cases between individuals who are known to each other. Rape occurs in families and within marriage. Why on earth do you imagine that a slave owner would be disinclined to rape a slave once he "got the urge". Because his wife might find out? In many cultures he wouldn't even have been regarded as violating his marriage vows, a slave not being fully human. Also, the abuse dynamics being what they are, the wife is just as likely to blame the rape victim. Also, the wife might prefer the rapist to rape the slave rather than her, especially if the rapist likes to get violent in sex.

As for running away? Life as a serial rape victim vs life as an escaped slave? I doubt terribly many slaves would view escape as the preferred option. Perhaps in 19th century USA where there was an underground railroad and states where escaped slave could live free. In cultures where slaves are primarily war captives, a slave has to choices - be an enslaved foreign national or be a dead foreign national.

I could go on but I think I've pretty much covered what I want to say

 

[Fenes 2]

Re: Re: Nuaghty

Man, if this quote is indicative of your attitude(s) to rape, you should leave it out of your campaign. It appears that you have little to no comprehension of the crime and its impact.



Not that I share the attitude to rape, but I take objection to the statement above.

I work at court, and I think I have a rather good comprehension of the crime and its impact. I also have a rather good impression of the crime of murdering, or assaulting, and its impact. Neither up close and personal, but a pretty much detailed comprehension of the whole process.

Still, how I present rape and murder in my game is my and my players' business, not anyone else's. I happen to think that I do not need to treat everything as seriously in game as some persons treat it in real life, and no one has the right to tell me otherwise. And imho - and note that I do not assume that you personally do this - anyone who lets his players get away with killing untold amounts of intelligent "monsters" has no right to preach about another's treatment of rape in his game.

Killing someone is a rather nasty thing to do, not some easy thing. Almost getting killed, or getting killed then raised should be a traumatizing event according to modern knowledge. If we can play characters that brave and experience such dangers daily, then we can have a game world where rape is not the end and all of crime, leaving behind broken husks of people.

Heck, do you seriously want me to accept that getting hit with magical acid or fire, charmed and dominated by a mind controller and doing things against your will like a puppet on strings, watching the very souls of your comrades getting captured and used for some evil goal, seeing your dead friends rise as undead and other "normal hazards" is a walk in the park, but as soon as someone is raped it HAS to traumatize the character or anyone else watching?

It is a fantasy world, with superhuman fantasy heroes, not real life. If you can deal with killing, maiming, arsoning and other vile stuff without breaking out the psychologial handbook and dishing out trauma checks, then you can deal with rape in a similar way - as a hazard and a plot device. Note that I do not say that rape can't be a traumatizing event that leaves mental and physical scars for life in a game (although a Heal spell could probably do wonders), but I take objection to the statement that it absolutely has to be such an event.

 

[David Argall]

Rape & slavery

"Man, if this quote is indicative of your attitude(s) to rape, you should leave it out of your campaign. It appears that you have little to no comprehension of the crime and its impact."

I have roughly the same comprehension of rape as I do of extreme violence, having fortunately had little contact with either. But while neither sex gets greatly upset about their PCs geting slaughtered [in a "fair" way], the women do find rape a much less enjoyable element of the game than men do, and the subject should be approached with caution if you have female players.





"Rape of a slave may not have been an everyday occurence in most slave cultures, but to minimise it is unreal."

It is the current fashion to "maximize" rape of slaves. Just about any sex involving slaves is claimed to be rape [a position that in fact justifies rape by making it the normal case.] In a case I read of in the LA Times the writer discovered she had a slave ancestress. She and the rest of her family decided the slave had been raped despite knowing the slave had been married, belonged not to her lover, but to another man, who was quite uptight on the subject of sex, and that both slave and her lover were expelled from the local church over the affair. In other words, they insisted it was rape despite every fact being against it. Such is a widespread attitude, and completely fantasy.





"Why on earth do you imagine that a slave owner would be disinclined to rape a slave once he "got the urge". Because his wife might find out? In many cultures he wouldn't even have been regarded as violating his marriage vows, a slave not being fully human."

"The laws of Islam give a man the right to have 4 wives. They don't give him the nerve." No matter what the law says about his right to hump his slaves, you are going to find durn few men who are going to do it in a way his wife will catch him.

"As for running away? Life as a serial rape victim vs life as an escaped slave? I doubt terribly many slaves would view escape as the preferred option. "

In all cultures at all times, slaves ran away in large numbers. [A current estimate for the South was that 10% of all slaves were escapees at any given time. However, this counts those who stole a keg and stayed in the woods until they sobered up.] In cities they walked away and got free jobs. ["You are obviously an escaped slave." "I will work for you for half wages." "Obviously my 1st impression was mistaken."] It would have been the preferred option expect that master kept guards, whippings, and tended to be less brutal than he might have preferred. Due to the constant escapes, no society has managed to breed a stable population of slaves. Without a steady source of captured slaves, slavery dies out, tho this can take well longer than a human lifespan.


"Perhaps in 19th century USA where there was an underground railroad and states where escaped slave could live free."

The Underground railroad may well have been a fantasy. Certainly a number of the "facts" about it are suspicious.

"In cultures where slaves are primarily war captives, a slave has to choices - be an enslaved foreign national or be a dead foreign national."
Very rapidly he also gained the choice of being free & a scorned minority. Rome was most famous for letting slaves buy their freedom, but this happened in all slave cultures. [The slave who had a chance to buy his freedom worked harder, so even tho he bought his freedom with his master's money, master was still well ahead to sell, and when offered gold, paid no attention to whether the law allow the sale or not.] & in any city, it becomes impossible to keep track of who is free and who is not, so escape was possible from the start.