Sleep & Unconsciousness

[Kzach]

In the rogue descriptions for powers that knock a target unconscious, it specifically states that the target wakes up if they're the victim of a damaging attack. In the wizard sleep spell, it does not.

There is nothing mentioned under the helpless or unconscious conditions that indicate whether or not a target is woken from this magically inflicted condition or not, after taking damage.

Now, I know which way I'd rule on this, but I need clarification for our DM as he's currently ruling that the target stays unconscious and you can poke him at-will.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

Well RAW it means that you can poke him at will. You can argue that thats not what was intended, but I think its fairly easy to imagine that the spell has a lasting effect, keeping the creature asleep, until he can break out of it with a saving throw.

 

[Ahglock]

It is magical sleep, poking snow white with a stick would not wake her up.

Or another way to look at it is, its a daily, and saves favor the victim fairly heavily as is. Having the spell from a controller keep someone down even after damage does not seem that bad to me.

But hey I want save or dies back in my game. Or at least slow effect save or dies, like the beholders petrifying power.

 

[Azza]

We played it on Sunday that he was asleep until he made the save. It was pretty useful and we beat up on a toughish baddie, but it is a daily spell so we didnt think it was a problem.

 

[reff42]

not just a daily, but only has a 45% base chance of working, and even then is 1 round delayed.

 

[The_Fan]

But there are other dailies that cause unconsciousness, and even monster abilities meant to be used on an unconscious target have to specify that it does not wake up. Also, as has been pointed out this is a spell that actually gets BETTER as you level, instead of being left in the dust like most 1st level spells. An orb wizard, by level 30, can make it so a creature will effectively never wake up (another one of the solo orcus-slayer builds).

So I'm going to rule it was a mistake.

 

[DLichen]

While sleep is pretty awesome, you have to hit, and it's one of the few offensive dailies that doesn't do any damage whatsoever if it hits, and the unconsciousness kicks in only if the target fails the first saving throw.

Since the only other abilities are rogue martials, I think it's quite clear that magical sleep is just supposed to be more difficult to wake up from.

I see no reason by raw or by power level balance to change it.

But there are other dailies that cause unconsciousness, and even monster abilities meant to be used on an unconscious target have to specify that it does not wake up. Also, as has been pointed out this is a spell that actually gets BETTER as you level, instead of being left in the dust like most 1st level spells. An orb wizard, by level 30, can make it so a creature will effectively never wake up (another one of the solo orcus-slayer builds).

So I'm going to rule it was a mistake.

That's silly, all spells get better as you level since you hit with it more often. And even with +9 wisdom and +2 spell focus for a whopping -11, Orcus and other elites usually get +5 or +2 to their save, which is still a 25% chance to wake up each turn. So hardly a solo Orcus build.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Sure, but look at it from the flipside.

Ignoring the name of the power for a sec, it's a fairly large AoE vs. will, that slows (save ends) anyone you hit.
That in itself is decent and more of a controller power than any other 1st level daily ..

The unconsciousness is just extra cheese.

 

[DLichen]

It would be pretty bad if slowing was the only thing it does.

As it is currently balanced, I still find flaming sphere to be a level 1 power since it instantly fries large groups of minions, no questions asked at a time when hitting your enemy is highly suspect.

Maybe at high levels sleep can be twinked to awesomeness, but I don't think unconsciousness makes it broken, just powerful.

 

[bardolph]

Sure, but look at it from the flipside.

Ignoring the name of the power for a sec, it's a fairly large AoE vs. will, that slows (save ends) anyone you hit.

... AND anyone you miss.