Sling vs. Hand Crossbow?

Xzylvador

First Post
Slings can hurl Gluepots and Firebombs and stuff like that (see Kobold Slingers in MM or KoTS), which could make it a weapon which a lot of diversity.
The problem is though, that I can't find these (or other) types of ammo anywhere in the PHB or DMG. So you can't make/buy your own, only find a nice kobold nest and hope to sneak some slingers before they break you precious ammo :(
 

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Cirex

First Post
The first people to live on my island (Mallorca) became master slingers. I think they are the most famous sling users to the date. They were used as mercenaries by the Phoenicians first, and then by the Romans (After Rome invaded Mallorca).

When Rome started their expansion, they tried to invade Mallorca, but they were refused because slingers were sinking their ships. With accurate shots, the wood-made ships were easily sunk.

Caecilii Metelli, after two years of siege, found the solution. He recovered the delicated parts of the ship with leather and finally invaded Mallorca.

This should give you an idea of their power.

EDIT : Ah, just discovered something. My archipelago is called "Balearic Islands". Balearic meant "Master Slinger".
 

Kishin

First Post
Xsjado said:
I find it hard to believe a sling could hurl a projectile with lethal velocity as far as a good longbow. Or any kind of decent recurve for that matter.

That's like saying you have a hard time believing that its easier to kill a large number of people with a flintlock than a machine gun.

You're right. You can't. The latter is absolutely the more advanced warfare technology. Slings nevertheless saw more than their fair share of action on the battlefield for over a milleniums. They were nasty weapons even in the early days of archery in ancient warfare. Combine the force multiplication of the whirl and the pirouette with the fact that overhand slinging gives you about 2-3 times the arm reach of your average fastball slinging major leaguer, then incorporate the fact that the item being flung is not a baseball, but a rock...

Of course, D&D makes no pretense at realistically simulating weaponry (A fact which I am 100% ok with), so...
 
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mmadsen

First Post
Xsjado said:
I find it hard to believe a sling could hurl a projectile with lethal velocity as far as a good longbow. Or any kind of decent recurve for that matter.
Here is a good discussion of bows vs. slings:
Bows take very specialist ammunition which needs to be well-made in advance, and maintained. An archer would want to recover as many of his arrows as possible after use. Arrows are expensive, and can warp in damp weather. Arrows are long things need to be carried in an awkward quiver which flops about as the carrier runs. A pouch of sling stones can be a neat bundle, a more manageable load.

It is well known how bows are affected by weather. Battles have hinged on whether one side, with superior archers, has been able to make use of its bows effectively. Even quite light wind will blow arrows off course badly, and rain will spoil bow strings, and drag arrows down from the air. Slings, while still adversely affected by wind and rain, suffer not nearly so much from bad weather. This may explain why armies with archers often valued having slingers as well.

Slingers are generally more mobile than archers. They find it easier to shoot on the move and have the great advantage of needing only one hand to shoot, which allows them to use a shield in their free hand to protect themselves. It is possible to load a sling one handed, and I find that the best way to do this is to kneel down quickly and use the ground as a third hand: put the sling down letting go of one string, get a stone, put the stone in the sling, then pick up the sling again by the loose string and stand up again. While doing this, you would want to have a shield for protection, since you have to take your eye off the enemy. One can sling while kneeling, but the shot will not be as powerful or accurate. Archers in ancient armies often wore armour; they needed it more. While some archers did sometimes carry shields, these could not be used for parrying while shooting. All this may explain while slingers were often deployed as skirmishers on the field rather than in huge formations.

Arrows can be seen raining down upon an enemy, and even when they are flying on a fairly flat trajectory, are visible to an enemy expecting them. Sling stones are much more difficult to see in flight, especially from a distance. It is also more difficult to judge which way they are going, as they are seen as a dot rather than a line. Sling bullets, which are cast lead shot, are especially difficult to see. It has been speculated that this difficulty of seeing the stones in flight might be both advantageous and disadvantageous. A cavalry formation charging into a shower of arrows, might be broken up or slowed down when the riders look up to see the arrows and try and avoid them. Slings would not break up formations this way so readily, but might gain from allowing less evasion.

One advantage that the bow has over the sling is that bows can be used more easily in deep formations of troops. Archers could angle their bows to shoot safely over the heads of their fellows in front of them. While slinging over the heads of friendly troops is possible, it is much more dangerous and was seldom attempted. In later periods, when fortifications had slits for shooting from, bows and crossbows were better suited to this than slings.

One further comparison with the bow which should definitely be made is that of the skill needed to operate the weapon well. A man might be taught how to use a bow to a useful standard quite quickly. Judging the range of an oncoming line of troops might be difficult, but at least the archer could shoot an arrow well enough to make it look threatening. Slings are different. To get good range with a sling takes practice. With one of my slings, I might sling a stone a bit bigger than a golf ball only seventy yards or so. Ancient slingers with much more skill than me could get a stone over twice this distance. There are peasant boys in Africa who use slings to herd sheep and goats. They sit in the shade of a tree, and if they see an animal straying, they sling a stone in front of it to scare it back into the flock. To gain this sort of skill, I am told it is necessary to start young. Good slingers in antiquity were in demand. Particularly famed for their skill with slings were the men of the Balearic Isles (islands in the Mediterranean including Majorca, Ibiza and Minorca). These slingers practised their skill from a very early age, their original purpose being to hunt and to scare pests. Their skill brought them employment from the Romans.​
More useful info:
Xenophon mentions Rhodian slingers being asked to volunteer to fight in the Greek army against Mithridates. These slingers, who did not fight in formal units, were said to use bullets which gave them twice the range of the less-skilled Persian slingers who used fist-sized stones.

Both Roman and Greek writers say that the sling could out-range the bow. The advantage of range is repeatedly stressed. This could, it seems to me, be because the sling had a greater effective range, arrows losing their power to air-resistance after a while, and falling out of control onto their target, whereas a sling stone might build up a more dangerous speed just from falling. The effective range of slings seems to be in excess of 360 yards. Assyrian reliefs show slingers attacking cities from further away than the archers. Perhaps this is because the archers were used to shoot straight at defenders on the walls, while slingers dropped stones into the city, or perhaps it is just another clue to the greater range of slings.

Writers tell of the terrible wounds that slings would inflict, especially bullets. The Romans developed a special pair of tongs designed for getting bullets out of people. Arrows, unless barbed and deep in the victim, are easier to extract. There was also a belief, presumably false, that sling bullets got white hot as they flew through the air. Julius Caesar writes about clay shot being heated before slinging, so that it might set light to thatch.

Sling units were employed in the auxiliaries in the Roman army in the Republican period. The use of the sling was part of the basic training of all soldiers, who were also trained to throw stones up to one pound in weight by hand, a method which was considered more readily employed, which I can well understand - it takes a fair few seconds and preferably both hands to get a sling out and ready. Pompey in the civil wars favoured the use of very large units of slingers. They were used beside archers, at sea, and in sieges. Scipio used them against elephants, and Caesar comments that the sling was particularly effective against them.

Contrary to popular belief, the sling is not whirled above the head several times, building up speed, before the stone is released. A sling might be whirled a couple of times slowly if the slinger had time, to get the feel of the weight of the stone, and while sizing up the target, but it is one big movement which sends the stone on its way. Anyone who makes a sling will find that they can whirl the loaded sling round and round far faster than they can cope with when it comes to releasing the stone. Also, slings are generally used over-arm, like bowling a cricket ball, rather than side-arm, like skipping a stone across water. A side-arm action allows for greater accuracy regarding elevation (up and down) but less regarding windage (left and right). A slinger who makes an error using a sling sideways is in danger of hitting his friends to his left or right. A slinger slinging over-arm will err only to sling into the ground in front of him, or over the heads of his foes; and he needs less room to sling, and can sling from behind a wall.
[...]
The power of slings is famous. When iron plate-armoured Spaniards went into South America against the Aztecs, only the slings of the Aztecs were feared. The stone-tipped arrows would glance off or shatter against the armour, but the sling stones would damage the Spaniards by sheer smashing force.​
 


Family

First Post
What's great about the following is that it supports everyone's point of view...that is to say: "you can take it too far; both ways".

pvp20050911.gif
 

mmadsen

First Post
Craw Hammerfist said:
A quarter-pound is 4 ounces. Approximately 124 grams. That's about a shot-glass full of lead or a ping-pong ball sized piece of granite.
Right -- and that's about twice as heavy as a typical sling bullet.
 

gribble

Explorer
I think it's an error/omission in the PHB, and the sling should have the ranged weapon equivalent of the "Heavy Thrown" property (i.e.: use your Str instead of Dex for hit and damage).
It makes sense for the following reasons:
  • It would differentiate the two weapons
  • It fits with previous editions of the game (where slings added Str to damage)
  • It makes sense in a "real world" kind of way

The only problem I can see is that it'd nerf kobold slingers (which presumably have a low Str and high Dex)...
 

mmadsen

First Post
gribble said:
It makes sense in a "real world" kind of way
Given that the most famous use of a sling ever was by a small shepherd boy against a giant, I don't think I'd make it a "heavy thrown" weapon that gets its bonus from strength.

And I think I'd give it lots of damage on a crit.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Kishin said:
That's like saying you have a hard time believing that its easier to kill a large number of people with a flintlock than a machine gun.

You're right. You can't. The latter is absolutely the more advanced warfare technology. Slings nevertheless saw more than their fair share of action on the battlefield for over a milleniums. They were nasty weapons even in the early days of archery in ancient warfare. Combine the force multiplication of the whirl and the pirouette with the fact that overhand slinging gives you about 2-3 times the arm reach of your average fastball slinging major leaguer, then incorporate the fact that the item being flung is not a baseball, but a rock...

Of course, D&D makes no pretense at realistically simulating weaponry (A fact which I am 100% ok with), so...
Baseballs? Try cricket balls.

http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/245921.html
 

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