& Sneak Attack: Skills and Proficiencies

[Generico]

Skills: 6 trained skills MAN I always thought that 8 was not enough, I know they have been folded into together but most Rogues in 3E played with a +2 INT so 10 (+1 for human). To me that is low. But I suppose it depends on what is included in 'theivery' if it is open locks, pick pockets/sleight of hand, find and disarm trap etc it brings you on par with 3E but certainly not more.

Well, it seems clear that there are significantly fewer skills in total for 4e. If you consider that each 4e skill probably encompasses 2-3 3.5e skills, and assume that because of that, there are approximately half as many skills to train in, then a 4e rogue with 6 trained skills is probably trained in about the same percentage of the total skills available as a 3.5 rogue with 10 skills.

Also, there are a lot fewer skills that require training before you can use them at all. So characters should require fewer trained skills in order to regularly participate in skill related activities.

 

[frankthedm]

2. That is not many weapons, what happened to the rapier- the quintessintial rogue wep IMO. Does it include lots of basic weps (not listed- club for example) that everyone/ every heroic class is proficient with?

I strongly doubt that. If there were any weapons like that, the dagger would be one of those weapons and thus it would not been listed. Throughout D&D, anyone not forbidden edged weapons could wield daggers.

 

[AllisterH]

You noticed how many terms have changed meaning in 4E? Tieflings and Eladrins for example, Saving throw as another.....

Similarly, I don't think Weapon Profiicency means the same thing as it does in previous editions. In earlier editions, being proficient in a weapon meant a lot since the non-proficient penalty of -4 was harsh, ironically harsher on the non BAB +1/level classes since for example, a 20th level rogue wielding a non-proficient axe actually only had same first attack as a 15th level rogue.

What I suspect is that since all characters at the same level have the same BAB and that the math has been reworked there's no such thing as the "penalty to attack with a non-proficient weapon".

When you're proficient with a weapon, you get a bonus to hit (+1 or +2 is my guess, +5 would be way too high) AND another option.

Thus, weapons probably have a breakdown of
Type:
Size:
Cost:
Dmg:
Profiency Benefit: (for example, being proficient with a reach weapon might mean you automatically get the benefit of the Short Haft feat from PHB II a.k.a, use a minor action to lose the ability to attack at reach but gain the ability to attack adjacent foes and a minor action to switch it around again).

Honestly, I think we're assuming the penalty of -4 to your attack role is still there...

 

[Klaus]

Well to keep the thread length down I thought I'd split this part off from the rest of the Rogue class discussion. I feel it is something that is really important:

Not many skills and proficiencies:
"Armor Training: Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short sword

Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others. From the class skills list below, choose four more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dexterity), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha), Dungeoneering (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis), Stealth (Dexterity), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dexterity)"

So...Profs:
1. Either Leather means upto leather armour or godd old peasant padded is gone..
2. That is not many weapons, what happened to the rapier- the quintessintial rogue wep IMO. Does it include lots of basic weps (not listed- club for example) that everyone/ every heroic class is proficient with? Do we think that there are less weapons in 4E or are rogues losing out a lot. I'll add short bow to the list of missing important rogue (3E anyway) weapons?

Skills: 6 trained skills MAN I always thought that 8 was not enough, I know they have been folded into together but most Rogues in 3E played with a +2 INT so 10 (+1 for human). To me that is low. But I suppose it depends on what is included in 'theivery' if it is open locks, pick pockets/sleight of hand, find and disarm trap etc it brings you on par with 3E but certainly not more.
No INT bonus means you can do little to effect that. My next rogue? INT 8

Let the raging, err I mean discussions begin

EDIT: but man o man bring on 4E this looks awesome, and thanks WotC for some crunchy goodness

It's not too hard to say your short sword looks like a rapier. The only difference between the two in 3.x was the threat range.

Is it strictly necessary to have two piercing, one-handed melee weapons that deal the same damage, specially now that crit range has been reduced to natural 20?

 

[hong]

All I know is, if I can't play this guy using this sword in 4E, HEADS WILL ROLL.

Er, and I'll houserule something. I dunno.

 

[Knight Otu]

I'm kind of wondering if the weapon proficiencies might be categories rather than distinct weapons - much like the war pick is in the pick category, the rapier might be in the short sword category. That doesn't seem too likely, with hand crossbow and shuriken also on the list (perhaps justified by having been exotic in 3E) and the use of "light blade" in the power descriptors, but it may be a possibility.

 

[HeinorNY]

More importantly though, they seem to have done absolutely no reform of weapon proficiency system - which was an area I had problems with.

Don`t forget the Critical Hit article.

Weapon Prof. Damage Range Cost Weight Category Properties
War pick 2 d8 -- 15 gp 6 lb. Pick High crit, versatile

Something changed.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Similarly, I don't think Weapon Profiicency means the same thing as it does in previous editions....

And I suspect that the same process is applied to armor, meaning the Rogue gains a benefit while wearing 'Leather' armor but is capable of wearing whatever he/she wants...

Which would be a good thing, no more dipping into Fighter to be able to pull off *looking* like a lordly Knight in shining armor
{highly useful in gaining a ladies favor or 'sneaking' away from a job by 'helping' the constables chase the dastardly thief }

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

So how do you play the Indiana Jones rogue type -- skilled, intelligent, charismatic, but not a stealthy thief? I'd be much happier if the skills list was "Pick 6" rather than "Stealth + Thievery + Pick 4". Or is IJ now a warlord?

I'm hoping there will be greater flexibility in weapons and skills ("Options, not restrictions" shouldn't be a theme restricted to 3E), but I expect we need to know more about the new feat system to see how that works.

 

[hong]

Fighter/rogue, probably.

The situation really is no different to the current rules, where you have things like Trapfinding which are useless without ranks in Disable Device. IOW, unless you go the cliched bomb-disposal-guy route, that's a superfluous ability.