Sneak Attack Undead Feat for you to attack

[DreamChaser]

What do ya'll think of this feat?

Undead Hunter
You know how to strike undead so it hurts.
Prerequisite: Favored Enemy-Undead +4 or Knowledge (religion) Rank 8, Sneak Attack +3d6.
Benefit: While using a +1 or better magical weapon, you can strike at the very heart of the energy that animates a corporeal undead creature. If you meet the requirements for a sneak attack, you can deal additional damage equal to 2 dice less than your normal sneak attack damage. You must have a ghost touch weapon to affect incorporeal undead.
Special: If you have a weapon with the Holy property, you deal full sneak attack damage.

Any comments would be welcome.

DC

 

[Nyaricus]

Neat!

i like it. i really, really like it. definitivly has flavour, and supports some interestin character concepts (like rogue/ranger or rogue/cleric or rogue/paladin). Also, you set this up as a viable 9th level feat (because of your fairly steep, but well-balanced requirements) and the fact that you can have holy weapons by level 7, and ghost touch at 9th, it is very well balanced (one or the other, but not both in al likelyness). Al in all, a nice mid-level feat.

now go and give yourself a pat on the back

 

[Hawken]

you set this up as a viable 9th level feat

A 5th level Rogue could meet the requirements as early as 5th level and get it with his 6th level feat (or sooner if the DM lets the player "save" feats for later).

(because of your fairly steep, but well-balanced requirements)

Those requirements are not steep at all, or necessarily balanced. As I pointed out, a rogue could get the req's met at 5th level. That's not steep at all. And it forces almost every other character wanting it to multiclass into rogue and/or ranger. Not exactly balanced.

The name alone is misleading. Since it would seem that just by virtue of the name that a single class cleric or ranger would be interested in this feat. Maybe you should rename it to something else that reflects being able to sneak attack undead (which is a bad idea to begin with).

Also, your feat assumes there is some specific weak point in the energy that animates undead that if targeted would allow extra damage. In the Core books there is nothing to support this assumption, and it is subtlely denied by the very fact that undead are immune to critical hits (and thus sneak attacks). Holy energy doesn't target a specific point on undead, it simply reacts because the target is undead.

All in all, you are allowing a single class (rogue) and at a a VERY low level (5th-6th), to overcome/ignore one of the facts about undead that make them specifically nasty for rogues. I couldn't see any rogue in a campaign with any frequency of undead monsters NOT taking this feat. And its not very balanced since its only useful to Rogues and forces Paladins, Clerics and Druids to multi-class into Rogue to take it.

 

[DreamChaser]

how could a single class rogue get this at 5th level? knowledge (religion) is cross class which makes the max rank (Level+3)/2. At 5th level rogue could only have Know (religion) to rank 4.

DC

 

[Nyaricus]

how could a single class rogue get this at 5th level? knowledge (religion) is cross class which makes the max rank (Level+3)/2. At 5th level rogue could only have Know (religion) to rank 4.

thank you, i was giong to say this myself. a 5 level rogue has it as cross class skill. you could get it with a level one cleric/5 rogue. this does raise a pretty big balance issue though. maybe add in a BAB requirement of +6?? this would set it for a level 9 character, which would be better than allowing it for a level 6 guy. this feat is very potent, if used.

also, i think you need to balance this out between your clerics and rangers. clerics, with minimal efforts can use their skills to get their requirement (level one cleric/5 rogue) btu rangers, who are specialist hunters, have to be 5 ranger/5 rogue to get this feat. That isnt balanced. id say just have a +2 favoured enemy (undead) is sufficient. the reason? well, you get the associated (but reduced, because of the undead typre) bonuses, from the favoured enemy special ability, and with clerics, the +5 ranks in Knowledge: religion gives a bonus to turning. both are potent as is.

Also, your feat assumes there is some specific weak point in the energy that animates undead that if targeted would allow extra damage. In the Core books there is nothing to support this assumption, . . . Holy energy doesn't target a specific point on undead, it simply reacts because the target is undead.

the weak point can be exploited by a +1 or better weapon; it is a holy weapon allows the full application of sneak attack damage (not minus 2d6). now, if you are a smart DM (or are the player of a smart DM) he/you will not allow all the rogues to run around with +1 holy daggers at level 7 (when you can then use a holy weapon). also, you wont always keep around your +1 holy weapon, better ones will come along, and that old one will be discarded or sold. that said, the whole point of this feat is being able to use sneak attack damage against undead. if a BAB of +6 were added in, this would become an excellent 9th level feat (when characters are coming in to some bigger, better powers) also, i think that the addition of the Holy property is too powerful. in effect, this adds +4d6 damage to all evil (and most aer) undead with thaddtion of the Undead Hunter feat > you get back the +2d6 sneak attack damage, and you get +2d6 damage against those of evil alignment (which applies to everyone, not just undead). thus, you will have a made scarmble for these weapons. i would drop that part of it for sure.

so, if i may, the way id do this feat would be like this:

Undead Hunter
You know how to strike undead so it hurts.
Prerequisite: BAB +6, Sneak Attack +3d6, Favored Enemy-Undead +2 or Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks,
Benefit: While using a +1 or better magical weapon, you can strike at the very heart of the energy that animates a corporeal undead creature. If you meet the requirements for a sneak attack, you can deal additional damage equal to 2 dice less than your normal sneak attack damage. You must have a ghost touch weapon to affect incorporeal undead.

theres my two cents, feel free to steal them, add to them, or flatten 'em under a train. up to you.

 

[Xaos_Bob]

I think the feat is fine and very cool as it is.

As to an IC explanation, our sufficiently-experienced rogue knows how to weaken and disable by putting the right shiv in just the right place. A ranger with such ingrained hatred or a cleric who traffics in divine (whether holy or unholy) power knows what holds undead together. Combine both aspects, and I have no problem with the idea of this character knowing exactly how and where to hit an undead to disrupt the flow of Negative Energy to the fullest extent.

Well done, DreamChaser! I'll be using this one in my games from now on.

 

[Drowbane]

It is a very interesting feat, and well done. However, I personally think being able to Sneak attack Undead is best left in the realm of PrCs and/or Spells. Mini HB has a PrC that allows sneak vs undead starting at lvl 2... it converts the sneak dmg to holy dmg. And Complete Adventurer has a fairly low level spell that allows sneak vs undead for a short duration (1 rnd?) as a swift.

However, if you're dead set on this ability as a feat... perhaps more prerequisites? Sneak vs something that doesn't have vitals is pretty hard to justify. Especially with the feat as written. A Rogue could take that feat at lvl 6 as long as they also took the Education feat (Eberron CS, and from somewhere else as well) that gives you access to ALL knowledge skills as Class skills... along with a bonus to two chosen skills.

That said, I like the thought of a rogue being able to actually be useful vs undead... I have one statted out as a Skull Clan Hunter (silly name, but oh well)

 

[Hawken]

how could a single class rogue get this at 5th level? knowledge (religion) is cross class which makes the max rank (Level+3)/2. At 5th level rogue could only have Know (religion) to rank 4.

The Education feat from Player's Guide to Faerun (which makes all Knowledge skills Class skills) is just one example of how a Rogue could meet that problem. That same Rogue could then save his 3rd level feat (if the DM allows that) and get Undead Hunter when he picks up 5th level. Or uses his 6th level feat to get it then.

the weak point can be exploited by a +1 or better weapon

Again, what weak point? There is nothing in any undead description that states the energy holding them together has a weak point. And unless your DM is willing to let some crazy rogue/fighter combo go in and take down vampires and liches in 1 round of attacks, I don't see that DM allowing SA to affect undead. Unless George Romero is your DM and your undead can only be destroyed by a shot to the head (and then again, no called shots). And there is nothing in the description of the Holy property that would indicate it could allow this.

While using a +1 or better magical weapon, you can strike at the very heart of the energy that animates a corporeal undead creature.

You still don't explain how a +1 weapon allows this to happen. Also, rangers don't need +1 weapons to inflict their FE damage, why should they be forced to have one for SA damage? Both are basically precision damage (knowing where to strike).

If you meet the requirements for a sneak attack, you can deal additional damage equal to 2 dice less than your normal sneak attack damage.

Why is it 2 dice less SA damage? How did you come up with that? And why should it increase? If your DM allows you to SA undead (and thus be able to crit them, which opens up an entirely new can of worms with Keen and Imp. Critical), how can stabbing the same spot inflict more damage when SA goes up? If there is only one weak spot on undead (according to your premise), then you should just be able to get a specific effect for hitting that spot. Maybe no more than one die of SA damage, period. That keeps undead dangerous, doesn't turn Rogues into undead killing machines, and doesn't take away from the heavy hitting power of fighters and rangers against undead. And, its about the equivalent of a +1 enchantment for a weapon.

If the requirements are:
BAB +6; Sneak Attack +1D6; Favored Enemy--Undead +4 or Kn. Rel. 12 ranks.
If the feat then allows only +1D6 of SA damage on Undead, then it compliments the FE bonus nicely, without making it less desirable (over SA) while also keeping undead dangerous and preventing rogues from being overbalanced. Fighters and other classes can still meet these requirements but not until 9th level and they would have as much incentive to take it as any other class, keeping the feat from being just something for ranger/rogues or cleric/rogues.

This way, it truly is a 9th level feat, even for clerics. Rangers could get it as early as 7th (5th ranger for FE req (BAB+5), 2nd rogue for SA +1D6 (BAB+1) (Total BAB +6), but that makes sense since they are supposed to concentrate on specific enemies.

Leave out the part about magic weapons being required. Rangers get away without it and if you limit the SA damage to 1 die, then there is no need for further restrictions. However, keeping the requirement for GT to strike incorporeal is just common sense.

 

[DreamChaser]

The Education feat from Player's Guide to Faerun (which makes all Knowledge skills Class skills) is just one example of how a Rogue could meet that problem. That same Rogue could then save his 3rd level feat (if the DM allows that) and get Undead Hunter when he picks up 5th level. Or uses his 6th level feat to get it then.

Thus making another feat the prereq. A rogue needing Edcuation doesn't make it easier it makes it harder because it detracts from the overall flow of the rogue class. With as many skills as rogues get, Education gives them less net benefit than any other class.

And it is a major house rule to allow "feat saving." The rules have always been clear that you don't get a Feat Slot you get a feat.

Again, what weak point? There is nothing in any undead description that states the energy holding them together has a weak point. And unless your DM is willing to let some crazy rogue/fighter combo go in and take down vampires and liches in 1 round of attacks, I don't see that DM allowing SA to affect undead. Unless George Romero is your DM and your undead can only be destroyed by a shot to the head (and then again, no called shots). And there is nothing in the description of the Holy property that would indicate it could allow this.

Clearly you have a different opinion of undead than my DM and I, which is fine. On the other hand it is very irrevevant to this discussion. Let's just say for the sake of argument that the idea of SA undead is just fine with the universe and ignore this line of arguement.


DC

 

[Hawken]

Thus making another feat the prereq. A rogue needing Edcuation doesn't make it easier it makes it harder because it detracts from the overall flow of the rogue class. With as many skills as rogues get, Education gives them less net benefit than any other class.

It doesn't make it a requirement. Just a short cut to get them there faster. And it hardly detracts from the 'flow' of the Rogue class--whatever you mean by that. And the Education feat gives Rogues more benefit actually than any other class, not the other way around. It opens up 9 skills to them as class skills and gives a +2 bonus to two of those on top of that. And Rogues have the skill points to spare for the Kn. skills, especially if the character is built with a decent or high intelligence. They can actually have more Kn. skill ranks than Wizards and without losing much (if any) from their original class skills.