Sneak attack while swallowed?

[jaelis]

Seems to me that normally you can only attack squares you threaten, but there are numerous exceptions (unarmed strikes, whips, the lunging strike feat, a blind character...) So it's reasonable to ask if grappling is such a special case. But the grappling rules are in fact quite clear that it is not... you can only attack opponents that are in the grapple.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Seems to me that normally you can only attack squares you threaten, but there are numerous exceptions (... a blind character...)

Now, there's an interesting example.

To a blind character, all creatures have total concealment.

You can't make an AoO against a creature with total concealment.

Therefore, a blind character cannot make AoOs. He can, however, make melee attacks into squares. Being blind doesn't change the squares into which he can make melee attacks... and while he can't make an AoO, concealment says nothing about changing which squares he threatens.

Does a blind character with the Mage Slayer feat still prevent Casting Defensively? Can he still grant an ally a flanking bonus? While he can't make AoOs, he isn't prohibited from threatening an area...

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If I put a knife in your gullet, would that be a "vital spot"?

No, especially not in D&D when the gullet automatically seals back up again.

The argument about the interior of the gullet not being a vital spot is ....reaching, IMO. The gullet does not have separate hp. It's part of the creature -- and right next to the heart, lungs, etc...

It's definitely not reaching since the gullet seals up as if it weren't damaged at all. Let's say you never otherwise injure the creature. If the gullet were not a separate pool of hp, under your interpretation you could kill the creature with a sword without even leaving a mark! Ridiculous!

In fact it is NOT self-evident that the gullet is not a vital spot in and of itself.

It's 100% self-evident, unless you allow automatic crits while inside the gullet. It's either a vital spot or it isn't, 100% either way, absolutely zero room for gray area.

 

[Nail]

No, especially not in D&D when the gullet automatically seals back up again.

You put a lot of stock in the phrase "Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole"! It's not as if the damage isn't done; it's just that the hole has been closed. The phrase does not say "the hole is healed".

We know this:

• The gullet is part of the creature. Put another way, damage to the gullet is actually damage to the creature. there's only one hp pool.
• The gullet has no natural armor bonus. This strongly implies it's not protected by surrounding tissue.
• A person in the gullet is undoubtably closer to the creature's innards than he is when he's outside the creature. Therefore he's closer to the creature's "vitals". Throat, lungs, heart, liver, kidneys, etc.

I don't see any problems with allowing a PC ability - linked to being able to reach the creature's vitals - from operating while in the gullet. Given the rogue has a weapon and can see, of course.

 

[ElectricDragon]

The gullet does have a natural armor bonus. 1/2 normal for the creature, this is where the description states what is allowed for the creature's AC (no Dex, no size, 1/2 natural armor). The fact that no Dex applies to this AC is just a formula to figure the AC for the DM not a denial. Caltrops state, "For this attack, the creature’s shield, armor, and deflection bonuses do not count. If the creature is wearing shoes or other footwear, it gets a +2 armor bonus to AC." This does not mean that the creature is not wearing armor unless it has shoes on. This does not mean the ring of protection +3 does not work, just that AC is figured differently in this case (deflection doesn't help against spikes on the ground).

No one has mentioned that size modifier doesn't count, meaning size does not matter in the gullet. Even though you are surrounded by the gullet and it is thus the only thing you can hit besides yourself, its size doesn't make it easier to hit!

SO, Nail, you would deny the rogue the ability to sneak attack a T-Rex from outside? (Reach vitals?)

And I don't see how being inside a T-Rex is safer than being outside one. Inside damage per round 2d8+8 plus 8 acid = 18-32 per round auto. Outside: 3d6+13 = 16-31 per round if you are the target of his only attack and if he hits and if he successfully grapples you. Given, two of the ifs are pretty much auto, but choice of target is not.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Nail]

SO, Nail, you would deny the rogue the ability to sneak attack a T-Rex from outside? (Reach vitals?)

Nope.

I never claimed otherwise. The point is, the inside is closer to the vitals.

(I had missed the 1/2 Natural AC. Good catch!)

 

[Infiniti2000]

You put a lot of stock in the phrase "Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole"!

Don't you? Isn't it part of the rules? I suppose if you don't want to use that sentence, we can just throw any other part out that doesn't suit you.

It's not as if the damage isn't done; it's just that the hole has been closed. The phrase does not say "the hole is healed".

I didn't say it was healed, either, but clearly whatever damage was done is irrelevant (regarding the gullet), isn't it?

Put another way, damage to the gullet is actually damage to the creature. there's only one hp pool.

Well, says you. There's precedence for it being otherwise, even should you throw out the rule you quoted.

The gullet has no natural armor bonus. This strongly implies it's not protected by surrounding tissue.

This falsehood was already debunked.

A person in the gullet is undoubtably closer to the creature's innards than he is when he's outside the creature. Therefore he's closer to the creature's "vitals". Throat, lungs, heart, liver, kidneys, etc.

Maybe he's closer, maybe not. Maybe being held in the gullet 20ft above the ground puts him further away from the groin, arguably one of the vital areas. Maybe the gullet is surrounded by fatty tissue that protects the creature from any real harm. After all, for most us we rule that the gullet seals up with muscular action, so why wouldn't such an "advanced" lifeform have additional protection if it expects to be sliced open from the inside?

And now, please respond to my two straw men regarding killing a creature without leaving a mark and allowing all crits.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Maybe being held in the gullet 20ft above the ground puts him further away from the groin, arguably one of the vital areas. Maybe the gullet is surrounded by fatty tissue that protects the creature from any real harm. After all, for most us we rule that the gullet seals up with muscular action, so why wouldn't such an "advanced" lifeform have additional protection if it expects to be sliced open from the inside?

I think it makes perfect sense for the advanced lifeform to have such protection. Thus, he's not automatically subject to crits... only those that roll within the threat range and confirm, managing to find the gaps in that protection.

Similarly, only someone specifically trained (and able to see) - like a rogue - is able to beat that protection in order to deal sneak attack damage.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

See what? Even if the rogue had a torch how could he distinguish the critical spots in the gullet from the non-critical spots in the gullet? Does the rogue need profession (medical doctor)?

More importantly, Nail postulated that the gullet itself is a vital spot. So, isn't every attack against it a critical AND a sneak attack, whether or not you can see?

 

[Hypersmurf]

See what? Even if the rogue had a torch how could he distinguish the critical spots in the gullet from the non-critical spots in the gullet? Does the rogue need profession (medical doctor)?

No, he needs Sneak Attack. It's how he can distinguish the vital spots on a grick, an otyugh, and a roper.

More importantly, Nail postulated that the gullet itself is a vital spot. So, isn't every attack against it a critical AND a sneak attack, whether or not you can see?

You just postulated that a creature who puts armed humanoids into its gullet would have a less-vulnerable gullet. I'm suggesting you're right - it's protected enough that you only crit within your threat range, not automatically, and you only sneak attack if yu have the class feature, not automatically.

-Hyp.