Sneak VS. Perception?

[Ashrem Bayle]

Am I the only one who has a problem with the number of dice involved in sneaking around? For example:

You have a halfling rogue sneaking passed three orcs.You have to roll Move Silently and Hide for the halfling and Listen and Spot for each orc. Then take the time to compare all of the scores. You then have to repeat this every time the rogue moves.

This has proven to be a pain on more than one occasion. So I was thinking of a way to streamline it a bit and decided to steal a bit from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed.

Here is my idea:

The character keeps his Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen scores as normal. The change comes in with the introduction of two new stats, Sneak and Perception. Sneak is the average of Hide and Move Silently while Perception is the average of Spot and Listen. When one character attempts to sneak around another unnoticed, the player rolls his Sneak vs. the other person's Perception.

Now, if the PC is invisible, or silenced, you'd roll only Move Silently or Hide as needed. You'd only use Sneak when you would normally use both Hide and Move Silently in the same round.

Thoughts?

 

[DanMcS]

Am I the only one who has a problem with the number of dice involved in sneaking around? For example:

I've never noticed a problem with it.

You have a halfling rogue sneaking passed three orcs.You have to roll Move Silently and Hide for the halfling and Listen and Spot for each orc. Then take the time to compare all of the scores. You then have to repeat this every time the rogue moves.

Mmm, there's a difference, I never bother rolling individually for each orc; find the highest bonus and give them a circumstance bonus for being in a large group, generally.

The character keeps his Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen scores as normal. The change comes in with the introduction of two new stats, Sneak and Perception. Sneak is the average of Hide and Move Silently while Perception is the average of Spot and Listen. When one character attempts to sneak around another unnoticed, the player rolls his Sneak vs. the other person's Perception.

Now, if the PC is invisible, or silenced, you'd roll only Move Silently or Hide as needed. You'd only use Sneak when you would normally use both Hide and Move Silently in the same round.

Averaging two skills to derive a new one... that's odd. I don't see anything terribly wrong with it, it just outside the realm of things I would expect to find in D&D. It's freaking me out.

Since there are fewer die rolls, this will be better for the sneaking PCs, generally, since there are fewer chances for them to botch out a roll. No chance of rolling an incredible HS and rolling a 1 on the MS, for instance.

This will work well for creatures with close scores in MS/HS or Spot/Listen. If something has a high one and low the-other, you'll get strange results, like they should have always heard the PC if they have high listen, but their spot is so low it drags perception down to where they miss him.

 

[Nifft]

I'm a fan of Perception vs. Sneak, because it lets me make skill checks for things like scent, taste and "ESP" (perception of incorporeal stuff, "bad feelings" from psychically charged locations, and the like).

The more I play Exalted, the more I want a better skill system in D&D.

-- N

 

[Treebore]

Am I the only one who has a problem with the number of dice involved in sneaking around? For example:

You have a halfling rogue sneaking passed three orcs.You have to roll Move Silently and Hide for the halfling and Listen and Spot for each orc. Then take the time to compare all of the scores. You then have to repeat this every time the rogue moves.

This has proven to be a pain on more than one occasion. So I was thinking of a way to streamline it a bit and decided to steal a bit from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed.

Here is my idea:

The character keeps his Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen scores as normal. The change comes in with the introduction of two new stats, Sneak and Perception. Sneak is the average of Hide and Move Silently while Perception is the average of Spot and Listen. When one character attempts to sneak around another unnoticed, the player rolls his Sneak vs. the other person's Perception.

Now, if the PC is invisible, or silenced, you'd roll only Move Silently or Hide as needed. You'd only use Sneak when you would normally use both Hide and Move Silently in the same round.

Thoughts?

your way looks like it would definitely simplify things. If your players agree try it out. You can always go back.

 

[Tatsukun]

Just take ten??

OK, IMC we have decided that you can always take ten as long as you are not in direct combat. So just about all move silently / sneak / spot / listen checks are taking ten. I just look at the bonuses and any circumstance mods and decide if the sneaky type was seen/heard.

Is this a misunderstanding of the take 10 rule (I was talked into it)?

-Tatsu

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

OK, IMC we have decided that you can always take ten as long as you are not in direct combat. So just about all move silently / sneak / spot / listen checks are taking ten. I just look at the bonuses and any circumstance mods and decide if the sneaky type was seen/heard.

Is this a misunderstanding of the take 10 rule (I was talked into it)?

I think that's a pretty decent interpretation and as a DM I wouldn't have a problem with it. Our group says that you cannot take 10 when under pressure. Therefore, the rogue trying to sneak past orcs with 30-40 feet would have to roll, because there's a possible threat in the area. That threat has the rogue on edge, and he just can't take his time to set up some proper camoflauge and be extra careful about his steps (he does need to keep an eye on those orcses after all).

 

[Dyir]

IMC I've just created the Observe and Stealth skills, which replace the (IMO) somewhat redundant aspects of the Hide/Move Silently and Listen/Spot skills. My players have never had any problem with it, and they appreciate the ability to put the skill points elsewhere.

 

[Storminator]

I've tinkered with the idea. It mostly works.

There are a couple of sticky points, but with a little care they can be worked around. Is an invisible character in chainmail quieter (or a Silenced giant easier to hide)? What about blind creatures? A cat familiar grants an MS bonus, how do you work it in?

PS

 

[Nifft]

The core mechanic -- two skills, two rolls -- gives an advantage to the observer (vs. the sneak). If we make two skills into one, and use a single roll, we'll have to model that advantage.

It seems to me that a +5 bonus on the Observe roll per perceptive mode applicable would be about right.

So, if your opponent could be seen or heard, you effectively get +5. If your guard dog has scent, he'd get +10. An invisible giant would get at least +5 to his Sneak roll... would a size-penalty apply? Maybe, big things are loud.

-- N

 

[Aaron2]

You have a halfling rogue sneaking passed three orcs.You have to roll Move Silently and Hide for the halfling and Listen and Spot for each orc. Then take the time to compare all of the scores. You then have to repeat this every time the rogue moves.

The times when the rogues IMC need to Hide and Move Silently at the exact same time are so rare that I have never seen that as a problem. The char either has total cover (i.e. behind a wall or in a ditch) thus no Hide or is waiting in ambush, thus no Move Silently. To need both you'd have to have a continuous series of cover/concealment (bushes, boxes etc) leading right up and past the guards.


Aaron