D&D 5E So, 5e OGL

[darjr]

Just googled and it doesn't seem like they did.

 

[Mistwell]

Yeah I remember 2 years ago (?) announcements at Winter Fantasy, but not GenCon.

 

[Hussar]

The problem, at least from PCGen's perspective, is that without an OGL (and either accompanying SRD or indication of what is OGC like what 4e did). Character creators are MUCH more difficult because we can't afford a lawyer, so you are then left with ONLY the ones that can afford lawyers, like Herolab, or people that completely ignore the copyright laws and put out what they want.

Not to be a jerk here, but, people spend how many hours developing something like PCGen? Isn't this like hundreds of man hours of work? Sure, it's volunteer work, so, no money is changing hands, but, for a project that has that much work put into it, I'm not really seeing how ponying up a couple of hundred bucks is that onerous of a task. Again, it's not like getting a lawyer, and let's face it, PCGen has a large enough following that you could likely get a lawyer user to help out if you put the word out, is that hard.

But a few hundred dollars for a lawyer is a far cry from the safe harbor of the OGL. Speaking personally, I'm ramping up on some Pathfinder products and would love to do 5e as well but won't touch it without an OGL for two reasons:

1) There is a difference between "not believing enough in your idea to pay for a lawyer" and "not believing a couple hours with a lawyer is enough of a guarantee compared to the whim's of a major corporation's legal division." WotC deliberately saying "it's ok to use this with the OGL" is the high bar I want met rather than "they said it was ok to use something similar enough years ago that I can kinda fake it to fit with this newer stuff they haven't said was ok."

2) Not as an accusation against anyone (since this is a standard I'm comfortable with for myself, but wouldn't hold anyone else to it), but for me, if WotC hasn't said "please play with our toys" to 3PP, then I don't think I should go playing with their toys. When they release the 5e rules under the OGL, I will be all over that. But until they do, no matter how much I believe in my ideas, I'm not going to dive in and hope they don't notice or mind - and if they do mind, pulling out my lawyer and telling them too bad they have to let me play with their toys.

So until WotC officially says "this is how 3PP can use 5e", I will stick with Pathfinder only.

And that's totally fair if you believe that. Obviously there are those who disagree with you because we are seeing 3pp being published both in electronic and print, and nothing is happening. The only time, that I know of, that WOTC has stepped in has been with some online character generators which reprinted the entire PHB, which would likely not have been completely kosher even with an SRD.

Like I said, I'm not sure that setting a bar a bit higher than, "Well, here's everything you can use, go to it" is a bad thing.

 

[Nylanfs]

Again, it's not like getting a lawyer, and let's face it, PCGen has a large enough following that you could likely get a lawyer user to help out if you put the word out, is that hard.

That is quite likely true, and it would NOT be a "couple of hundred dollars", a lawyer isn't going to give any type of advice without doing their research, and that costs. It's also against PCGen's policy of getting the publisher approval, even though with the OGL we didn't NEED to get their permission to use the OGC in the datasets. This is PCGen's publisher policy. I have reached out to WotC to see if we could get permission and was basically brushed off with a form letter. So since they do not seem interested in doing anything OGL, the best we are going to be able to do is create a mechanics framework, some sample original data and assist the users in creating their own datafiles, like we did with 4e.

PCGen requires direct, positive permission to include material in distributed data sets. Even in the case where material is covered under the OGL, PCGen seeks permission from the publisher for specific permission to include their material. This is done to protect the publishers rights with respect to their material.

The only time, that I know of, that WOTC has stepped in has been with some online character generators which reprinted the entire PHB, which would likely not have been completely kosher even with an SRD.

No, the times that WotC stepped in and sent a C&D to a generator they have been using things not in the Basic Rules AFAIK. And a character that has all the info on their character sheet is different than printing the whole PHB.

 

[Hussar]

That is quite likely true, and it would NOT be a "couple of hundred dollars", a lawyer isn't going to give any type of advice without doing their research, and that costs

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?355286-So-5e-OGL/page99#ixzz3hFZpvSfh

How much do you think a lawyer would cost for something like this? Would it really run into a thousand dollars?

 

[prosfilaes]

I don't see the point in getting a lawyer, especially for something like PCGen. Are they going to go back everytime they have a new file to get it vetted? I'm not aware of any case law on the subject that would allow a lawyer to give a good clear answer. They can say if you do this, you'll legally be in the clear, but what if WotC disagrees?

It's also taking a more adversarial attitude towards WotC. When people put out things under licenses like the OGL, they usually intend people to use them. And WotC demonstrated that with the way they handled OGL violations; even when a lot of people were edging towards the line, they only forced one or two products that were clearly out of bounds to be destroyed. If WotC doesn't want people to use them, one thing they can do is start pointing towards tiny infractions and coming down hard. Even once is expensive.

You see this in other forms, as well; people and groups who are big on open source tend to spend time being nice with violators, whereas organizations like Oracle, who bought MySQL and Java pre-open sourced, tend to interpret the rules a lot more narrowly and are a lot quicker to jump on violations. I certainly feel much more comfortable working in Pathfinder then I would in many systems based off D20 whose owners have made it clear they don't want people using their work under the OGL, even if they have to use the license.

 

[Jester David]

How much do you think a lawyer would cost for something like this? Would it really run into a thousand dollars?

Here in less litigious Canada, a cheap copyright lawyer will go for $100 for the first hour, and jump in price to $200-300 for following hours.
Given they need to research D&D and familiarize themselves with both the license and related terms, as well as double check past rulings (for games), that'll be a couple hours talking (two visits and all) and a couple researching. $700 ballpark. Likely more.

Could you afford to just lose $700? Right now, this month, $700. Gone. For the opportunity to *maybe* make some money back.

 

[Mark CMG]

How much do you think a lawyer would cost for something like this? Would it really run into a thousand dollars?

Much more than that, I am sure. Just getting up to speed on the last fifteen years of what has happened with the OGL and the GSL would take hours and hours and hours with numerous people in the firm at various levels attached to the project. Any lawyer who would half-ass something that might bring them into legal conflict with Hasbro isn't worth the money spent. Thus, the money spent would have to be a great deal.

 

[Mark CMG]

Here in less litigious Canada, a cheap copyright lawyer will go for $100 for the first hour, and jump in price to $200-300 for following hours.
Given they need to research D&D and familiarize themselves with both the license and related terms, as well as double check past rulings (for games), that'll be a couple hours talking (two visits and all) and a couple researching. $700 ballpark. Likely more.

Could you afford to just lose $700? Right now, this month, $700. Gone. For the opportunity to *maybe* make some money back.

I think any lawyer worth having would need a lot more time for research. They'd have to review any time in the intervening years since the inception of the OGL that WotC has even flexed their muscles (sent a C&D) and anything said by WotC employees regarding the OGL, the GSL, and particularly reasons behind moving away from the OGL to the GSL (for therein lies some idea of the thought process behind what they feel they are protecting). I can't imagine any firm taking the chance of giving slipshod legal advice that might run someone afoul of Hasbro, so we're talking about dozens of hours, at the least, IMO.

 

[Mark CMG]

In any event, the OGL Announcement Watch Day Zero has officially started!

If anyone hears a peep, a grunt, a whisper, or a shout regarding an OGL announcement, I hope they will add it to this thread. With any luck, some enterprising convention goers will ask a few of the WotC folks about their plans and remind them that summer is ending soon (they did say summer, right?).