So, eladrin's can teleport around? ..nail...coffin...rogue already obsolete?

[Fifth Element]

see my sig. nuff said

Not 'nuff, apparently. I made the same point in post #3.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Bear in mind a couple things that have been hinted at for 4e:

1. From that article on classes wayyyy back in August:

In the final version of 4th Edition, most of your racial traits come into play right out of the gate at 1st level—dwarven resilience, elven evasion, a half-elf’s inspiring presence, and so on. As you go up levels, you can take racial feats to make those abilities even more exciting and gain new capabilities tied to your race. You can also take race-specific powers built into your class, which accomplish a lot of what racial substitution levels used to do: a dwarf fighter with the friend of earth power can do something that other 10th-level fighters just can’t do.

Now, this eladrin teleport ability COULD be a "race-specific power built into the class," but since (a) I think it's been mentioned for eladrin of other classes and (b) it doesn't make a ton of sense as a wizard-specific power, I'm guessing that it is instead tied to racial feats. So not only do you need to spend feats on this ability, it's probably level-restricted; we have no reason to believe a first-level eladrin can teleport around like this, as far as I can recall.

2. It's been specifically mentioned that a lot of these lower-level teleportation abilities are "line of sight" only, and probably have other restrictions with them as well.

3. This is almost certainly a per-encounter or even per-day ability, so it's not like the wizard will be using it willy-nilly, like a rogue would need to. (The warlock will apparently get his own short-range teleportation powers, but he's a striker, so it makes sense that he'd have some extra mobility as rogues do.)

Now, all that taken in mind, I'm not too worried about rogues and their skill-based abilities being overwhelmed by magic. Why? Because just as fighters are getting sweet powers to keep their combat effectiveness on-par with wizards' flashy spells, rogues are getting powers that will presumably keep their skill effectiveness up to snuff. Remember that early article about the martial power source, and how it allows rogues to take their skills beyond what other classes can utilize them for? I'd be astounded if these powers didn't allow a rogue to outdo a similarly-leveled wizard making use of spells like Invisibility and Spider Climb.

 

[bmcdaniel]

teleporting

In general, I am coming around to liking most of the 4E changes I see.

But I really, really dislike the proliferation of low-level and racial teleport abilities.

In my opinion, anytime you disappear from one place and reappear somewhere else, that should imply big, powerful magic. It shouldn't be a trick one gets to do simply by virtue of being a member of one of the default races in the PHB. The ability to do so breaks the flavor that I have established for my world.

And , as said previously, it nerfs skills. I am really looking forward to spells like fly and telport becoming less accessible. It's a step backward from a game where jump, climb and swim matter when one of the PCs has a spell like ability that lets them just pop around.

Ken (not bmcdaniel)

 

[Dave Turner]

So, the "eladrin" can teleport around eh? Most races can see in the dark. Magic can pretty much duplicate any "natural effect." What's the point of skills again? It will be interesting to see how the hypermagical system of 4E is going to balance this.

How do you suppose they will overcome making the rogue obsolete at 1st level? You dont' need his climb or stealth abilities if you can just teleport at 1st level. Is he just relegated to the role of comic relief in 4E?

jh

With all due respect, this is all needlessly hyperbolic and perhaps hysterical. If you have access to the 4E rules and would like to back up your claim of obsolescence, I'm eager to read it.

 

[Banshee16]

So, the "eladrin" can teleport around eh? Most races can see in the dark. Magic can pretty much duplicate any "natural effect." What's the point of skills again? It will be interesting to see how the hypermagical system of 4E is going to balance this.

How do you suppose they will overcome making the rogue obsolete at 1st level? You dont' need his climb or stealth abilities if you can just teleport at 1st level. Is he just relegated to the role of comic relief in 4E?

jh

It likely depends on how far they can jump, how often they can use it, if there are prerequisites, etc.

Having a wizard who could cast Tensers Transformation never made the Fighter in the party useless. It just made the wizard *almost as good* in melee for one fight. The Fighter can do it all day long.

Having the Jump, Spider Climb, Invisibility, and Knock spells available never made the wizard better. Again, he can do it once or twice in a day, while the rogue can do it all day long. In addition, if the wizard is doing these things, he's not casting magic missile, sleep, Melf's Acid Arrow, etc.

I've never minded having role overlap. I have no idea why some people find it such a problem. I actually dislike the whole cardboard cutout approach to siloed abilities that the game seems to be going in, because it makes you dependent upon certain character types. Having a wizard wave his hands in the air, mumble some magic words, and spit on the wall, in order to have that lock magically spring open is very, very different from having Argon the cutpurse crouch down in the alleyway, check for booby traps on the door, flatten himself against the wall to hide as two guards walk by the mouth of the alley, then pull out his lockpicks, spring the lock, and slip inside. Very, very different.

Banshee
Banshee

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

Warlocks could already do this in 3.5:

Flee The Scene
Lesser, 4th
You can use Dimension Door as a spell-like ability, though the range is limited to short...

This at-will short range dimension door was quite useful in Age of Worms, and did allow us to circumvent traps some of the time, but all it really did was allow the wizard, cleric and bard to conserve their limited use Dimension Doors.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I'm sure the Rogue will have plenty of stuff do to besides making Jump checks.

This doesn't make the rogue useless. It makes putting an Eladrin in jail useless.

 

[Remathilis]

Eladrins don't make rogue's obsolete.

It makes Eladrin Rogue's the cat's pajamas though!

 

[Doug McCrae]

doesn't your party still need a rogue even though a wizard/sorcerer has the "knock" spell?

Depends if he also has invisibility and spider climb. If he does then the rogue is just the wizard's understudy.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

Darkvision

*blinks* *rubs eyes* *looks again*

Tell me you're kidding.

It was in kunadam's Races and Classes leak on Gleemax:

Dwarf
Resilient industrious folks.
One of their racial feat allow a second “second wind”.
They no longer have darkvision, only low light vision (most races will have only normal vision).
Favoured class: Fighter

Kunadam said the flavoured class bit is supposition based on his reading of the book, it's not outright stated in there.