So, eladrin's can teleport around? ..nail...coffin...rogue already obsolete?

[Doug McCrae]

A short range teleport 1/day doesn't negate rogues. What if you need to climb 200ft? Or be stealthy? The monsters you want to get past could easily have line of sight beyond a t-port. And as others have said if it needs line of sight (which I bet it well a la similar 3e powers) it can't bypass locked doors.

The real problems are invisibility, silence, knock and spider climb/fly.

Invisibility was always too powerful an effect to be 2nd level. I figure it will be bumped up to paragon. The same with fly, though spider climb might still be in the 1-10 range. However a better solution would be to remove spider climb altogether. Unlike fly it isn't iconic, it's more reminiscent of Spider-Man than fantasy. Do away with knock and silence too, wizards don't need the former, they have more than enough powers. And the same with clerics, silence was a peripheral ability for them but move silently is fairly central to the rogue's concept.

I've never read it but I'm guessing all these spells are in the thiefless OD&D which is the reason for the whole problem in the first place. Wizards powers were fine in 1974 but as soon as the thief was created the trouble started. OD&D wasn't built with room for the thief to breathe. And nor was 1-3e.

3e did a good job. But it needed to go so very, very much further.

Mooooo! I'm on fire!!!!!!

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Eladrin = "Blink-elf". ROFLMAO.

Frankly, though, if it is limited in range and line of sight and limited times per day, I don't see it as a game breaker -- dimension hop and benign/baleful transposition from the SC certainly aren't.

 

[Voss]

I'm guessing that it is instead tied to racial feats. So not only do you need to spend feats on this ability, it's probably level-restricted; we have no reason to believe a first-level eladrin can teleport around like this, as far as I can recall.

In the other thread, the guy who report the report mentions that they're 2nd level. Don't remember about the eladrin in the other playtest report that used it, but I don't think they were high level either.

 

[WhatGravitas]

A short range teleport 1/day doesn't negate rogues. What if you need to climb 200ft? Or be stealthy? The monsters you want to get past could easily have line of sight beyond a t-port. And as others have said if it needs line of sight (which I bet it well a la similar 3e powers) it can't bypass locked doors.

The real problems are invisibility, silence, knock and spider climb/fly.

Hell, even if they can 'port around all the day, it's not that bad for the rogue, because the rogue may have abilities to actually make use of his mobility, like 3.5E's skirmish, acrobatic tricks, doing it without calling more attention than needed (unless it states that 'Fey Step' is completely silent).

So the eladrin wizard ports atop a cliff to avoid getting hit? The eladrin rogue will port atop the cliff and dive down again to lay down the smack.

They're infiltrating a castle? The rogue can either climb and sneak to that hidden door, pick the lock and allow his comrades to come in unseen, or the eladrin fighter can port in with a loud "swoosh" and alert half the castle at once.

The eladrin cleric ports to his friend, healing him? Sure, but the halfling rogue can perhaps hop on top of his opponent (knocking him down), slinging a healing potion for his friend at once.

And since the playtests suggested that the rogue has at least some acrobatic tricks working, I guess that's the route they're going.

Cheers, LT.

 

[neceros]

So, the "eladrin" can teleport around eh?

We aren't 100% sure.

Most races can see in the dark.

From my memory, Dwarves got light enhancement, but most races got no vision enhancement.

Magic can pretty much duplicate any "natural effect." What's the point of skills again?

Magic is, for the most part, limited in design and use. Skills are more reliable and subtle.

How do you suppose they will overcome making the rogue obsolete at 1st level? You dont' need his climb or stealth abilities if you can just teleport at 1st level.

Rogues are a striker-typed class. They do what warlocks do but without magic. Everyone is getting powers in one form or another, and rogues do so with pure skill and ability as opposed to 'magic.'

Is he just relegated to the role of comic relief in 4E?

jh

Hardly.

 

[ruemere]

Guys,

The two key selling points for 4E (mentioned many news reports earlier) are that:
- no class is required for playing (hence the prevalence of special abilities emulating certain abilities of other classes),
- each class has abilities it excels at.

For example, each class is able to use second wind to heal some hitpoints back. But clerics can heal and do something else at the same time.

Example #2, one of the playtesters mentioned Rogue's ability to move around in combat and attack and withdraw.

So yes, the Eladrin Wizard can teleport (within short range limited by his line of sight), but the Rogue is likely to tumble to the same range, perform attack _and_ do something else (like withdrawing). If I remember correctly, Spring Attack has become Rogue's class ability, hasn't it?

Also, please look to the bright side - the wizard is no longer a whelp in need of meatshields. He's not a melee monster, but he is not helpless either. My main beef was that at many key points of adventuring, taking our main ranged blaster character (usually wizard) during skirmishes was the decisive moment of the battle. However, with this change, it is possible to tone a bit wizard's defensive and offensive spells, while boosting up his survival chances against melee types.

Basically, to me, the chief advantage of 4E, is that one does not have to rely on presence of one class to run an adventure. Yes, it helps if you have someone to do the thing, but you're not going to be forced to quit if you need to improvise.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Emirikol]

With all due respect, this is all needlessly hyperbolic and perhaps hysterical. If you have access to the 4E rules and would like to back up your claim of obsolescence, I'm eager to read it.

Sorry, I only read at the 3.5 level In all seriousness, I do ask if the Rogue really can stand on his own anymore or if he's been replaced essentially by spells and crap. Was there an actual question in there?

Jay

 

[Emirikol]

Warlocks could already do this in 3.5: This at-will short range dimension door was quite useful in Age of Worms, and did allow us to circumvent traps some of the time, but all it really did was allow the wizard, cleric and bard to conserve their limited use Dimension Doors.

We found the same thing. Our rogue was pretty much "replaced" and I hate to see another "replacement" issue arise. Maybe I just feel sorry for the rogue as one of the rare non-magical classes.

I can see that an eladrin rogue will be a min-maxers dream. I think that minimal teleport will be very powerful in getting a rogue behind opponents (especially enemy spellcasters..which are already one-shot creatures in 3.5 because they're such easy targets). It will no doubt be fun to play for several adventures. The eladrin's human counterpart rogue however...sigh...

jh

 

[Fifth Element]

Sorry, I only read at the 3.5 level In all seriousness, I do ask if the Rogue really can stand on his own anymore or if he's been replaced essentially by spells and crap. What was your point?

The point is, in all editions of D&D, there have been spells and crap that can do some of the things a rogue can do. Why is the class suddenly obsolete in 4E? Nothing essential has changed, as far as we know at this point.

Invisibility has always been better than Move Silently. Has the rogue always been obsolete?

 

[Emirikol]

Invisibility has always been better than Move Silently. Has the rogue always been obsolete?

That's my question. Is this just another nail in the coffin? Is there any hint that the rogue hasn't been replaced by magical means?

jh