So, how do you keep'em from just 'porting away?

[TheAuldGrump]

Didn't need fixing, and you seem to be quite an incompetent repairman (or person).

"Preconceived notions"? How meaningless. It's an adventure in my campaign, so it's my notions that matter. If a poster's response fails to acknowledge the couple of explicitly-stated requirements for my planned adventure, that's useless and obtuse, much like your vapid drive-by trolling.

Or a perceptive one. It was neither trolling nor an attack, you did however treat it as such. You had a notion of how you want the game to go, some of the advice did not fit that notion, so you did not like them - that is the nature of a 'preconcieved notion'. My belief is that he was trying to be humorous, which, again, is not the same as a troll.

You in fact did not state that this was for a particular preplanned adventure, so his statement was accurate. Whether you intended to make that statement may or may not be a seperate issue. You may have thought that it was self evident, but it was not.

Personally my take agrees with Monte Cook's, plan around what the party can do rather than take options away from them. If this means that they can solve the murder mystery by using 'Speak with Dead' then plan what the corpse can tell them. If the party can 'Scry' on the enemy plan out what they are likely to find out. If the party can teleport away either ward the area that you think that they might try to leave from (so they can get around it by going someplace else) or plan how the bad guy might handle that eventuality.

Time limits on how long the adventures take are good, as are 'Contingency' spells. (If someone that I am fighting casts Teleport within X feet of me then spell Y is automatically cast.)

The Auld Grump

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I want to make players feel like they're trapped and hunted like animals.

Where? This is important.

It's one thing to make the trapped in a city, it's another thing entirely to want them to feel trapped in the Underdark - or in the Abyss.

Although you mentioned a 9th-level caster being able to teleport a 4-person party beforehand, that's only valid if, in fact, the party is made up of 4 people and those 4 people are the only ones involved. Sure, the PCs can cast a simple teleport spell and escape, but what about the villagers they're trying to escape with?

Heck, allow them to do the teleport extraction routine a few times (allow them to use their higher-level abilities), but have the BBEG eventually catch on and turn on his Eldritch Machine (see the ECS), which prevents all teleportation magic within a 10 mile / 100 yard / whatver radius, and which requires innocent souls to work. Have him magic mouth the party and let them know that he'd be more than willing to turn off the machine and save the children strapped into it the pain, if they promise not to use any teleport spells. And he'll be watching, so ...

 

[Felon]

Or a perceptive one. It was neither trolling nor an attack. you did however treat it as such.

Someobody stopping by to re-word my post so that it has a contrary meaning, one that would be sure to get on my nerves? Yes, I treat that as a troll. Because it pretty handily is.

You had a notion of how you want the game to go, some of the advice did not fit that notion, so you did not like them - that is the nature of a 'preconcieved notion'.

Some of the advice was not useful or insightful in the context of the topic at hand. If I ask "How do you make escape a goal, how do you create a mood of claustrophobia, how do you make players feel they're trapped and hunted?" and someone's response is "Well, you don't because you can't do any of that, because the game doesn't let you do that, and Monte Cook says a good DM lets players do everything that's permissable and I agree. A good DM uses his imagination to figure out ways to do other things besides what he wants to do. Love the bomb!", then I don't put that response in iether the useful or the insightful category. It's just one of those popular blog mentalities, that being contrary is the same thing as thinking outside the box.

Oh, right - 'cause those people who have figured out how to incorporate higher-level abilities into their games instead of feeding their players regurgitated dungeon crawls with prettier set dressing for 20 levels are the ones who are devoid of imagination.

That's not a little trollish in your book, Auld Grump?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I want to make players feel like they're trapped and hunted like animals. That requires them to be confined in one area and for them to search for a means to escape.

Ahhh, see, the two are not nessecarily related. You can make PC's feel like they're trapped and hunted like animals without confining them in one area and having them search for a means to escape. A lot of the advice was addressing the "make players feel" angle, without getting rid of teleporting (which does thwart your other angle).

Now, to make them confined into one area and have them search for a means of escape? I guess you're dealing with the same problem that people have when they want to capture even a 1st level party and put them in jail or somesuch -- with the rules of the game the way they are, it's very hard without resulting to fiat and nerfing to capture any sort of party in any sort of confined area. High Escape Artist skill? High Strength score? High Pick Locks skill? Wildshape? Alter self? It's all a potential deal-breaker.

The strategy that most DM's have used is to either not bother with it at all, or to make the NPC's doing the capturing be significantly higher level than the PC's. If they're weaseling out at 9th level, make the NPC's 14th. The strategy here means not confronting the NPC's who caused this directly, merely to arrange for some sort of escape, some weak point in their plan, some thing they didn't account for.

The best way to make a manacle that a high Escape Artist skill can't thwart is to have a higher Craft skill than the target. The best way to thwart Teleport, in-story, is to have more magic than the teleporting target. The game is built so that in order to stop the heroes, you need to be more than bad guys -- you have to be villains.

 

[VirgilCaine]

However, in 3.0, you only get to take 50 lbs. per level with you when you teleport. Since Felon is assuming a "standard" 4 person D&D party, let's assume we have a Wizard, Fighter, Cleric, and Rogue (all 9th level). Most beefy fighters are going to weight about 175-200 lbs naked. Slap on some plate mail, some basic equipment, and 3 or 4 weapons, and we're already approaching 250 lbs, and that's just for one person! So the 9th level wizard you are talking about will probably only be able to get 2 un-reduced medium-sized characters out, if you follow the RAW.

And if you follow the 3.0 RAW, everyone should have a Heward's Handy Haversack, reducing 120 lbs. of gear to a mere 5 lbs.

Treasure, now, treasure is the key here! What does the party grab and leave behind?

At higher levels water (ring of sustenance, create food & water, create water, ) and rope (silk rope) can be created/weigh much less, obviating the two big (IMO) drags on encumbrance. So treasure is the big one.

 

[Felon]

Now, to make them confined into one area and have them search for a means of escape? I guess you're dealing with the same problem that people have when they want to capture even a 1st level party and put them in jail or somesuch -- with the rules of the game the way they are, it's very hard without resulting to fiat and nerfing to capture any sort of party in any sort of confined area. High Escape Artist skill? High Strength score? High Pick Locks skill? Wildshape? Alter self? It's all a potential deal-breaker.

Most of that's OK though. It moves the adventure along, gets them from one scrape to the next, and it even gives diferent characters a chance to shine. Teleport puts back in the safety of their most fortified sanctums. Adventure over.

I've pretty much got the answer--there is little in the way of an official countermeasure (although the mention of the Anticipate Teleportation spell was helpful)--so it's either a fiat nerf or bleed the teleports out and don't give them a chance to rest. Or do the adventure in the underdark.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That's not a little trollish in your book, Auld Grump?

Not answering for the Auld one, but it's no more trollish than:

There are also those who just don't want the campaign to be so super-over-the-top, so devoid of obstacles and hazards that make for interesting plots, that the game consists of little than the scripted hack-n'-spellfests that this Tactics in Action article is representative of.

But you knew that.

 

[Nifft]

I wish my players were smart enough to 'port away when the going got rough. One time they were attacked by a pack of flying Nycaloths while standing on a muddy hillside (no cover in sight) -- and the Wizard, who had teleport prepared, yells "Scatter!"

The 'loths captured them, one by one. It was not pretty. sigh the adventure took a far different turn than I was expecting.

-- N

 

[Tuzenbach]

Yo, Auld! Are you a Vancouver Canucks fan? You see, they've a goaltender named............"Auld"........

 

[VirgilCaine]

I wish my players were smart enough to 'port away when the going got rough. One time they were attacked by a pack of flying Nycaloths while standing on a muddy hillside (no cover in sight) -- and the Wizard, who had teleport prepared, yells "Scatter!"

The 'loths captured them, one by one. It was not pretty. sigh the adventure took a far different turn than I was expecting.

-- N

Pffft. I see a new wizard player in their future.