D&D 5E So what exactly is Wizards working on?

I don't think that cynicism is warranted. There may only have been a few truly excellent published adventures over the years but that does not mean everything else was blah. The AL adventures on offer at GenCon, however, were totally blah. Furthermore, there have been a good number of truly great accessories over the years -- nothing like that in 5E so far. In fact, there really haven't been any 5E accessories, printed or announced (barring the fairly insipid PotA players guide PDF), which is closer to my original point. I really expected WotC to at least announced something for 5E at GenCon ... And here we are, eight months later, in pretty much the same boat.

There is a huge difference between a printed published module that a DM can use in whatever manner he wants for his group, and a convention module that has to be written to have a beginning, middle, and end that finishes in 3 hours and which requires an ease-of-use for the 90+ DMs who are volunteering their time to show up to GenCon to run it, away from most of the stuff they would normally have at their house to really flesh the module out.

If you haven't seen them and can find them... take a look at all the Living Forgotten Realms adventures that were written for previous editions. You'll find they seem pretty much on-par with the Adventurer's League modules that were played at GenCon.
 

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@Reynard

Oh okay, sure I totally agree with that. I meant more that, GenCon was a wash in terms of 5E. The fun I had there was "edition neutral" which is counter-intuitive for an edition's launch event.
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I understand there are constraints on OP adventures that home play products can ignore but I don't think those constraints excuse bland writing. Maybe whoever wrote those adventures was trying to be "iconic"? I think anyone who has played D&D (even a D&D CRPG) would recognize those AL adventures as a pack of tropes.
 
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While it does happen, it's not as widespread as you think. This has already been explained away in other threads with examples as to why it's not a majority issue.
WOTC has data that says it's a major problem. I believe them.

You have loads of products that do this and nobody gets scared away. Look at legos, various toys, card games, novels etc....
LOTS of people get scared away from these products for this reason. You know how many MORE people would play Magic if they didn't look at the wall of cards at most stores and get intimidated? A lot. I know at least 20 people who've said that the game looks interesting but it looks like you have to buy a lot of cards and it looks complicated because you have to remember what hundreds of cards do. I try to explain to them that it's not that big of a deal. They don't believe me, they've seen the wall of cards at the store.

I argued the same thing as you back when we started the Living Forgotten Realms campaign for 4e. I said "Hey, people were really invested in Living Greyhawk during 3e/3.5e. They flew around the world just to play more games. That's how dedicated the people were! Let's bring that back again." I was told by WOTC that they had done surveys and they said that the weirdness involved in the rules of Living Greyhawk provided too great a barrier to entry to play the game. It intimidated new players. They had all responded that the people playing the game seemed more hardcore and obsessed with D&D than they were. They just wanted to play the game every once in a while. Living Greyhawk had 70+ pages of rules explaining how to play it. It had a huge list of banned, restricted, and allowed items from all the books in print. A large number of people simply didn't play because it SEEMED too complicated.

I was told that Living Forgotten Realms was going to do away with restricting adventures to certain regions or giving exclusive adventures to certain people that no one else could play without travelling because those things made the hardcore players feel special but turned away all of the casual players.

I've been told the exact same thing about purchasing habits. A majority of the people who play D&D don't buy expansion books of any kind. They buy the core books and never get another one. Some don't even get the core books because they are afraid you need the expansion books. There is data to back this up.

D&D is a niche hobby so most people that play it know what they are looking for. You aren't going to have the general masses just walking into gameshops and coming across D&D and figuring they will give it a go.
That's how I discovered it. Well, rather I joined a group of people who played D&D and then I decided to buy a book of my own. But I had no idea how or where to buy it. I walked into a book store and I remember my mom and I asking the people there which books it was that I was supposed to buy in order to play the game. The people in the book store had no idea at all. My mom didn't want to buy me anything unless she knew she wasn't buying me the wrong stuff and we'd have to come back later and buy more stuff. She was also concerned at the price of all the books and told me she wasn't sure I should get into this hobby because it looked expensive.

I have a friend who worked at a game store. She told me random people would walk in constantly and ask her "So, my son wants to play this D&D thing and I heard you buy that here. What is it that I need to get them?"

Ever try getting started with Warhammer? Ever walk into a Games Workshop store? A whole shop dedicated to the stuff?
Yes, I have. It intimidated me so much I stopped playing Warhammer 40k, actually. I had a small army that I bought from a friend but I went in there and saw people's fully painted armies and all the products offered and I thought "Wow...these people have spent a LOT of money on this game. Do I want to spend that much money?" At first I thought I could get away without spending much money. But I ran into the rule that you aren't allowed to play an unpainted army in Games Workshop. Plus, my army didn't have enough points to play a normal game. So, I wasn't allowed to play until I spent more money and spent a lot of time painting. I realized that this was a hobby only for people with a LOT of spare time and money. At first, I thought that was awesome. I bought more models and I played outside of the store with my friends. But I kept losing over and over. I realized that the good models for winning were also the most expensive ones. I had to spend even MORE money to get a GOOD army. So, I stopped playing. There was too much stuff and it overwhelmed me. i wanted it all but I couldn't afford it.

Customers aren't scared by products.
They are. The numbers show that each book you add drives away more and more people. It likely makes the ones that DO stay more fanatical about your product as they are more invested. But WOTC doesn't want a small number of people who are very invested. They want lots and lots of casual players.
 



I can't think of any 3.x WotC modules that were outright stinkers off the top of my head, but I'm sure they are out there. Our group mainly did homebrew back then. The 3.x module stuff is mostly fond memories of Sunless Citadel and Red Hand of Doom.

Probably the worst of the bunch was "Scourge of the Howling Horde".

Unfortunately, though, WotC have only managed a handful of good adventures, ever (for any edition of D&D). Most of them are really quite poor, with only a few reaching the heady heights of 'adequate', and even fewer actually being 'good' - an elite group that happens to include both of the adventures you cite.

That's part of why "Lost Mine of Phandelver" is so well received - not only is it a very good adventure in its own right, but by comparison with what has gone before it stands out all the more.
 

Let's do a quick list of possible products.

1: Dungeon magazine.
2: Dragon magazine.
3: Various Monster Manuals. (You can't have monster bloat).
4: Class guides.
5: Campaign setting book.
6: Regional campaign setting books.
7: Spell Compendium.
8: Magic item compendium.
9: Book of feats and backgrounds.
10: Racial books.
11: Short term modules.
12: Arms and Equipment guide.
13: Things to do with your Gold guide.

Some of those would have have multiple books that branch out so you are loaded with books that people would buy. Those are just ideas off the top of my head.

And yet on another thread regarding the Elemental Evil Player's Handbook you say:

"They have produced races that are niche to the product to be honest and we don't need anymore spells at the moment. Almost every class is a spellcaster in some way, how about bring out some nonspellcasting material?"

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...Player-s-Companion-FREE!/page12#ixzz3UBewwuAT

So here you're saying they are not releasing enough, and then you go and criticize when they are giving you free stuff that shows up on your list of what they should publish.

You list Dungeon and Dragon magazines. What sort of material do you want to see in them? I think that having the free Unearthed Arcana and Sage Advice monthly columns, as well as a twice a year free addition to the rules to tie into published adventures are a great start. There are a lot of authors, staff and freelance, that haven't been tapped yet. I think it's a pretty safe bet that we'll see a monthly (at least) column from Ed Greenwood in the near future. Probably free and online too.

As I stated before, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion, and whether you like it or not that's what you have. Wizards has the data, they are the ones that have a vested interest in remaining employed creating and publishing D&D, and it's up to them to decide what the best way to do that is.

Considering how many people purchase the game, we on this thread (and site) are an extremely small minority. Sure, Wizards is interested in our opinions. But they need a way to gather that information in an organized and meaningful way so they can act upon it. Oh, wait. They do. They have surveys, they have sales figures, they have sales history, and yes they also go to conventions and talk to people direction, and I'm sure they read these forums too.

As far as I can see this is a new foundation for the new edition. That includes the release schedule, the online support, the types of products they are releasing, etc. From the playtesting that led up to it, as well as the rules that resulted, I have an enormous amount of confidence in the team myself.

So I look forward to the next announcement and the next release. Will I love everything? No, but I don't have to. I just love playing this edition, and seeing what's around the corner.

Ilbranteloth
 

You have nicely laid out my case for me there. GenCon rolls around and WotC has practically nothing ready to sell and makes no announcements. And this is the 5E launch GenCon. Pretty much reflects that D&D is an afterthought as far as WotC is concerned.

People have looked at the Mearl's statement saying they have financial data saying lots of product was bad for 3E and 4E, and come to the conclusion that "bloat" leads to diminishing returns in terms of sales and that the "wall of books" phenomenon scares away potential new players.

Personally I agree with those people, but let's look at it from the other angle - let's assume for the moment that 75+ books on a shelf isn't off-putting to a portion of the fan base or intimidating to new players.

How many books should they put out?

The most direct answer to that question is "as many as is profitable". Only a portion of the fanbase will buy a Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book, and while they can put out the Eberron and Dark Sun and Greyhawk and Planescape books as well to try and cover their bases, there's still a large chunk of fans who will never buy a setting book at all. And as others in this thread have pointed out, it's better to sell a thousand copies of one book than five hundred copies of two different books.

The same applies to player's option books. The population that buys every product Wizards comes out with is a tiny slice of the pie. Most groups with casual players make do sharing the core books. Let's say half of all customers buy supplements (that number could be higher or lower, but I think half is in the right ballpark). A quarter of that half of the customer base will buy the arcane casters sourcebook, another quarter the martial classes sourcebook, a third quarter the divine casters sourcebook, and another quarter is only interested in adventures and monster books. Not to mention that since groups share books with one another, not everyone who's interested in a given book will even have to buy it.

That's simplifying things obviously but the point to drive home is that for every product type you put out you're only catering to a fraction of your player base. Books are expensive to make and even assuming an edition's widespread popularity amongst fans, no hardcover after the core three will ever sell as well as those again. So even with a "healthy" release schedule of a single book a month, that's twelve books they have to pay to produce - all those writers, editors and artists have to eat, not to mention they have to pay to have those books printed, stored and distributed to retailers. They say a book's successful first printing basically makes its money back and profit is earned from second and third printings, etc.... how many printings do you think the 5E "Complete Book of Elves / Fighters" will get? Not enough to make it worth doing.

The classical solution to this dilemma is to reboot the edition, but that means spending money on R&D's salaries for two years while you're not making any money off of their work. Assuming the new edition is well received they'll make that money back, but that's not a guarantee.

This time they've decided it's way easier to make money off of D&D by just leveraging a popular IP in more profitable areas. Why spend a lot of money putting out expensive hardcover books that'll be moderate sellers at best, when you can just sit back and have people throw money at you for video games and movies? Right now they've settled on the amount of money they're willing to spend on the tabletop game - 2-4 books a year, max - and only because they're reasoning it might help the brand. If a year or two from now they determine those 2-4 books aren't cutting it, they'll stop putting out books and focus entirely on the other aspects of the brand, not put out more RPG books!

"D&D" isn't an afterthought as it looks like it could be quite successful financially, but that money isn't going to be coming from splatbook sales. Folks need to wrap their heads around the idea that the tabletop game is secondary to the brand's success.
 

D&D is most certainly an afterthought qua tabletop RPG product line. That is the conclusion of your entire post. I've posted the same thing for the last few days.
 

Except that they *are* putting out books, just not fast enough for some people. I think we are *very* likely to have two new books out for Gencon. Wizards is just playing things close to the vest this time. The echo chamber that is this niche forum is just going to have to adjust to the fact that books are not going to be announced way ahead of time.
 

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