So, what was the first product where D&D's soul was sold?

[eyebeams]

Compared to other ventures, no rpgaming company other than perhaps WotC is doing well.

Uh, no. There's a reason businesses exist on multiple scales. For comments like this to be at all meaningful you have to look at a business' formal objectives (as stated in its business/strategic plan for the tax year), how well a business meets them, and how efficiently the venture makes money (whether its net/gross ratio is onerous or not). Then you have to look at those accomplishments in the context of the market, as well as specific segments applicable to the business.

Nevertheless, there's a difference between aiming to make some spare cash to earning a full time living, another leap from earning a full time living to supporting multiple full time employees, and still another leap to making enough of a profit to do something more than simply reinvest in the business. My net has been positive since the fourth month of business and I'm able to do my part for my family with nothing but RPG earnings (and do better than some of the starting full time packages offered by largish companies). Obviously, expecting a large corporation's results from a modest sole proprietorship is silly, and saying that the proprietorship's lessons apply to the corporation or vice versa can only be justified in the most limited sense, if ever.

That's why TSR was successful when it still was stapling books in a basement in the 70s. "Success" is defined very broadly until you impose a specific context. But I've never read any pretense that TSR wasn't a business with an unadulterated profit motive, so it can't be accused of betraying any particular values regarding its properties, except for maybe quality. WotC is the same; they don't pretend to be selling D&D for great justice or anything.

That said, Dragon Magic's creation was kind of cheesy, don't you think?

 

[Beckett]

I don't dispute this. The link I was referring to was affirming this (that they are 2 seperate markets). It is an interesting question though, what would have happened if Gygax had ended up with the majority of shares of TSR and had kept control. And lets say he kept the 2 core rule books and focused on developing other FRPGs that focused on new themes like CoC, Top Secret etc. That would be following more of a game board model (keeping the same game and adding new games). This is different then changing the core game every 5 years or so to sell new rule books (like 3.5) while not adding new game systems.

An interesting question, maybe. But would it have happened? Gary was making plans for 2nd edition while he was at TSR (with the Mounteback and Savant and other stuff that did and didn't end up in UA).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That said, Dragon Magic's creation was kind of cheesy, don't you think?

Fortunately the end product is one of the best things WotC has produced in the 3E era, so all is forgiven.

 

[Hussar]

*snip*

3e changed that somewhat with a complete revamp of the core rules, but seems to have fallen back into the same pattern with the release of 3.5 where so much stuff got regurgitated in a new format and with the releases in the last few years where so much of the content is just recombined rules or unoriginal extensions of old rules. Even the completely new, "outside the box" stuff (like Tactical Feats from CW or some of the new base classes) isn't, IMO, particularly innovative or inspired. If I had to pick a single word to describe my opinion of the content I'm seeing from WotC's current line of products, "forced" would probably be the one I'd pick.

Now this I really have to question. There's been some very innovative stuff come out of WOTC in the last year or two. Tome of Magic's Binder being a great example. But others as well: The new module format - like it or leave it - is the first revamp of a module format in years; the Affiliations rules in PHB2; the retraining rules in PHB2; new monster formats (again, like it or not); just to name a few. I think that the recent WOTC offerings have certainly been pretty innovative.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I think it was the "D&D's Soul Boxed Set". You got one soul of D&D, Monte Cook's lifeblood, as well as E. Gary Gygax's sweat and tears.

Now this I really have to question. There's been some very innovative stuff come out of WOTC in the last year or two. Tome of Magic's Binder being a great example. But others as well: The new module format - like it or leave it - is the first revamp of a module format in years; the Affiliations rules in PHB2; the retraining rules in PHB2; new monster formats (again, like it or not); just to name a few. I think that the recent WOTC offerings have certainly been pretty innovative.

There's more:

The Warlock: A spellcaster that casts his spells (or rather spell-like abilities) all day.

The Spellthief: A roguish character that uses his enemies' spells against them

Book of Nine Swords: Abilities that are "once per encounter" rather than "X/day"

New Formats: You already mentioned some, but there are others: New Format for Classes (which I really like) and PrCs (which could be shortened, but gives lots of fluff); In the Monster sections (as well as various other parts): Small sidebars containing information obtainable with Knowledge checks; The magic Item format; Spell format (the little descriptive text at the beginning).

Fantastic Locations: Large encounters complete with full-scale maps (that double as locations for skirmish battles)

Which brings me to: D&D Miniatures: Okay, they're not from the last year or two, and they weren't the first of their kind, but the idea of cheap, prepainted plastic minis (which are anything but dainty - they're used to a much rougher treatment then your average painted pewter piece). The figures serve two purposes at once: You can use them for D&D (and the sculpts come right out of the rulebooks), and you can use its own game for some quick battles on the side, if you can't gather the whole posse.

 

[tx7321]

MerricB, thanks for the suggestion, sounds like an interesting read.
The thing about the UA is that there was alot of new rule "concepts" put forth that clashed with the way the game works in general. That doesn't mean they would have been bad rules in an entire rules system (such as a future Gygaxian 2E) which balanced and harmonized with them. Thats why UA felt a bit like a train jumping its track IMO.

 

[Klaus]

OK, after reading the Warz thread, its clear there is a general agreement that at some point TSR and WOTC chose to favor marketing and commercialism over the "needs" of the players.
I think there are some disagreements however as to when this very first occured.

Personally I think the first major "sell out" of D&Ds soul was with UA. This was the first time we saw money take center stage in a big way. Before this point one got the impression Gary Gygax was still in it for the "love" of the game. After this point, its as if the corporation takes over, Gary's heart just isn't in it anymore, and he's on the way out. Its clear greed and corporate profits become more important then the game itself.

Yep, UA was the first selling of D&Ds soul for a handful of silver. It was the rapids before the waterfall of what was a post-Gygax 2E world. Unfortunately 3E maintanes this corporate philosophy treating D&D as a commodity with "units sold" being the primary objective rather then functionality itself. Thats why 3E (a novelty based system like 2E) will fizzle out and not have the staying power of OD&D and AD&D IMO. But only time will tell...perhaps we'll see with the release of 4E as the majority of 3E players switch over for the newest and hottest D&D eye candy.

This is a trick question.

D&D is an inanimate product and as such it has no soul.

 

[tx7321]

True, but then that goes for anything (including artwork, music, poetry, etc.). Yet, collectively we say "that music has soul" and everyone knows what that means.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Now this I really have to question. There's been some very innovative stuff come out of WOTC in the last year or two. Tome of Magic's Binder being a great example. But others as well: The new module format - like it or leave it - is the first revamp of a module format in years; the Affiliations rules in PHB2; the retraining rules in PHB2; new monster formats (again, like it or not); just to name a few. I think that the recent WOTC offerings have certainly been pretty innovative.

Hussar,

I really have to agree with you. Damn you!

RC

 

[Klaus]

True, but then that goes for anything (including artwork, music, poetry, etc.). Yet, collectively we say "that music has soul" and everyone knows what that means.

For art, sure.

But no one looks at a board of Clue and say "man, that game has soul".