D&D 5E So what's exactly wrong with the fighter?

[FormerlyHemlock]

IMO, WotC did a terrible job of providing official options everyone needed. For example, I hate the healing/resting rules. Even the optional rules in the DMG don't give me what I'm looking for. With that said, I certainly don't consider the game to be a closed book. Of course, I'm willing to accept that my desire for old school healing/resting rules is a minority opinion. I may in fact never see an optional rule in that regard that makes me happy.

Couldn't you just adopt AD&D rules wholesale? "On a long rest, you heal (Con modifier, minimum 1) HP of damage. Short rests include no healing."

 

[MechaPilot]

I have to say that my only real issue with the fighter is the delaying of the subclass abilities until 3rd level. There is very little non-story character differentiation for fighters before 3rd level. Fortunately, the first two level go quicker than the others, but subclass should have been a first level gain for all characters.

 

[MechaPilot]

Couldn't you just adopt AD&D rules wholesale? "On a long rest, you heal (Con modifier, minimum 1) HP of damage. Short rests include no healing."

In general, yes, he could. It's very easy to make that change if one wants to.

In specific, it's an up-in-the-air question. If he wants to remove short rests altogether, he'd probably have to make adjustments to the refresh-on-short-rest abilities to compensate. Also, switching over to the AD&D rules would make 5e's HDs irrelevant, so he'd have to cut those out (but that's so easy it only merits a mention for the sake of completeness).

It also wouldn't excise Second Wind and Survivor from the fighter class. Those are both martial healing abilities that he objects to. Second Wind has several easy fixes that were posited both on this forum and the WotC forum. Survivor would have to be replaced with an ability of commensurate power.

 

[MechaPilot]

Sucks pretty hard is more like it. However, because the stay is so short at level 1 it is just bearable.

As long as you survive that stay.

 

[MechaPilot]

The 5E fighter is great at killing things, but it has nothing like the 4E fighter's ability to control the battlefield. If you liked the tactical aspect of playing a fighter in 4E, you'll not be satisfied with the 5E fighter.

Many of us think that a good thing.

I think it's much more accurate to say that people think it's good that the 5e fighter doesn't have to be like the tactical aspect of the 4e fighter. The 5e fighter not having those tactical aspects as class options though is a very different animal.

 

[MechaPilot]

Because a martial having exceptional effects beyond reach violates the very concept of martial vs magical. Something that seems to have been totally beyond the grip of the 5E team.

And the 3e team: Ex abilities.

 

[MechaPilot]

Because a lot of people don't want to play D&D like a boardgame.

Again, this falls victim to people equating have to with able to. Options to give the more tactical aspects avoid have to wile fulfilling able to. Quite literally, the best of both worlds.

 

[Obryn]

Some playstyles are just not compatible with each other. I can't say much about your playstyle, but it sounds a bit gamist with a heavy focus on miniture/grid combat.

For the first part, that's what options are all about. And I've seen nothing about the 5e rule set that would make (a) martial healing, (b) fighters with declarative abilities, or (c) out-of-combat non-spell fiat, incompatible with the existing core options. It might be incompatible with how *you* want to play, but that was what this whole modular deal was supposed to be about. Use the stuff you want.

As for the second part, ummm no, that's not my playstyle. I hate to burst your bubble about lumping together everyone who enjoys 4e. I don't really have just one. My preferences veer towards the more collaborative and player-empowering, though not for every game. I think most games could be improved with a bit more of it, however, especially games where some characters get a whole bunch of it.

I've been DMing now for over 30 years (1981?), and my favorite RPGs are RC D&D, D&D 4e, AD&D 1E, Feng Shui, Savage Worlds, WFRP2, Earthdawn, Paranoia XP, and Powers & Perils. I have an appreciation for Dungeon World (and other Apocalypse Engine games) though it'd never be my go-to game, and would love to sell my players on Fate, Spirit of '77, and Ryuutama. I'm never running 3.x/PF again, likely not playing them either, and didn't care for a recent retry at Marvel FASERIP as much as I hoped I would. I think 13th Age looks awesome, has some amazing ideas, and I'd love to try it, but I am also skeptical about some other big parts of it.

Most of those have nothing to do with grid combat, and most are only "gamist" to certain degrees, but I'm a firm advocate of remembering that RPGs are supposed to be games, supposed to be fun for everyone, and that both my players and I have a responsibility to make sure it works out that way. So that's why I'm in favor of adding more cool stuff to 5e; I'd love to add it to my "favorites" list. I've run it for my group, but so far they've been disappointed. New, cool stuff might be just what I need to get them to give it another shot.

I haven't seen a proposal in this thread. Maybe I overlooked a post. What's the "this" that would expand the options? Link?

Wasn't that the sort of thing you were arguing against upthread? With Celtavian? That I replied to?

I don't have a specific proposal outside of "gee, declarative abilities are nifty, and it sucks that they're all gated behind spells, so maybe let's fix that."

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

In general, yes, he could. It's very easy to make that change if one wants to.

In specific, it's an up-in-the-air question. If he wants to remove short rests altogether, he'd probably have to make adjustments to the refresh-on-short-rest abilities to compensate. Also, switching over to the AD&D rules would make 5e's HDs irrelevant, so he'd have to cut those out (but that's so easy it only merits a mention for the sake of completeness).

It also wouldn't excise Second Wind and Survivor from the fighter class. Those are both martial healing abilities that he objects to. Second Wind has several easy fixes that were posited both on this forum and the WotC forum. Survivor would have to be replaced with an ability of commensurate power.

It should also be noted that removing short/long rest healing has a large effect on the monster ecology. Apex predators like say Purple Worms can do pretty much whatever they want under the short rest regime; if the Purple Worm decides to eat an elephant, it can pretty much eat an elephant, even if it takes 109 points of damage from the other elephants in the process. Remove easy healing and suddenly predators have to be much more cautious in their behavior; if healing 109 points of damage from elephants takes the better part of a month to heal from, even a purple worm is probably going to seek easier prey. (Maybe.) That could mean that it's more eager to attack adventuring parties, because they's not elephants; or less, because they aren't cows.

In short, as unusual as short rest healing per RAW is, it has salutary effects on the monster ecology and so I've grown to kind of like it. I just take it as a given that all D&D creatures are incredibly resilient compared to their Earthly counterparts. Maybe the Predecessors spliced a bit of Troll bloodline into everyone?

 

[MechaPilot]

It should also be noted that removing short/long rest healing has a large effect on the monster ecology. Apex predators like say Purple Worms can do pretty much whatever they want under the short rest regime; if the Purple Worm decides to eat an elephant, it can pretty much eat an elephant, even if it takes 109 points of damage from the other elephants in the process. Remove easy healing and suddenly predators have to be much more cautious in their behavior; if healing 109 points of damage from elephants takes the better part of a month to heal from, even a purple worm is probably going to seek easier prey. (Maybe.) That could mean that it's more eager to attack adventuring parties, because they's not elephants; or less, because they aren't cows.

In short, as unusual as short rest healing per RAW is, it has salutary effects on the monster ecology and so I've grown to kind of like it. I just take it as a given that all D&D creatures are incredibly resilient compared to their Earthly counterparts. Maybe the Predecessors spliced a bit of Troll bloodline into everyone?

I also enjoy short rest healing, so it's not an issue for me.

That aside, I do think that people who want to do away with short rest healing are looking for a game where combat is more dangerous to predators like the PCs. I believe this is especially true in cases where the overnight healing would be replaced with the AD&D rates.