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D&D 5E So what's the problem with restrictions, especially when it comes to the Paladin?

Really? Since when is good synonymous with lawful? or evil with chaos? Lawful evil is definitely the worst kind, since it's more meticulous, focused, and industrious. These things aren't merely labels.
Reading comprehension fail much? That was exactly my point.

The opponents that were faced,
the goals they had,
the characters that were the protagonists,
their goals,
the people in the world,
the way they lived their lives,
the forces aligned against each other in the world,
the behaviour of the creatures assigned to be the "monsters",
the general goals of everyone and their ways of achieving them,
the general plot lines and their resolutions,
the philosophical underpinnings thereof,

they were all THE SAME, before and after the shift in focus. The shift that was IN NAME ONLY, because my point is that ONLY the labels were different. Nothing had actually changed in the game itself. Which meant that the morality system wasn't doing what it was supposed to be doing. The fluff was functioning without it.
 

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What jonesy says is true. For example, Elves used to be Lawful, back in the days when Lawful meant what Good means today.

Overall, the new system is better and more intuitive. Fighting evil fits better than fighting chaos with our common concept of those words.
 

I don't think they work for anyone when they become crunch restrictions. I've seen first timers get into heated arguments over what is lawful. And I'm talking about kids who were fine swindling each other in Monopoly. On one side you have one who wants to play a prototypical knight in shining armor, and on the other one who thinks the other has suddenly become a fascist. Kids not old enough to even have a discussion about the underlying philosophies are arguing about whether the first one has a right to do what he thinks is the right thing to do and whether that makes him evil or good.

The section of text I've bolded highlights what I think is best about having these be crunch restrictions. I recall having these discussions as a kid. What a wonderful thing--a set of "real" experiences (well fully contextualized) where kids can, and did, debate morality. Also, being "forced" into a moral leadership role is a neat experience for some kids. Power gamers who want to keep their power and so end up doing the right thing.

I think for adults it's less important--many of us take on hard roleplaying tasks because it's fun. But for kids, I think it's a wonderful gift to have to try out new roles. And in our groups the Paladin (and the Druid) were the ones that really made us first think about actually _playing_ a character.
 

That's one way to look at it, I guess. I'd just rather have the discussion come from a plot scenario rather than a problem with the rules. You know, fluff instead of crunch. In one you are advancing a story, and in the other you aren't getting to the story.
 

That's one way to look at it, I guess. I'd just rather have the discussion come from a plot scenario rather than a problem with the rules. You know, fluff instead of crunch. In one you are advancing a story, and in the other you aren't getting to the story.

Yep, I entirely get your argument. I just know that for me and my friends, some of the issues on morality and the like only existed because the crunch forced it on us. (Say 6-8th grade). "Think of the kids" is occasionally a valid argument. :)
 

It's not hard to argue that paladins in D&D ought to be lawful good holy warriors. Heck, I might have posted something to that effect back around the 3.5->4e transition myself. But the thing is if they are, is the paladin really a viable core class in the game? The classic D&D paladin occupies a pretty small roleplaying niche, and one that doesn't function well with a lot of parties or in a lot of adventures. Heck, even without code/alignment restrictions the lack of formal roles is going to blur the lines between the cleric and paladin a lot more again.
 


What is "good" exactly? What is "lawful"? It's nice to have D&D deal with morality, but quite frankly WOTC(and everyone else I've seen) sucks at defining it. They either create something so vague or wishy-washy as it's impossible to actually nail down in an effort not to offend people, or they create something so specific that it prevents a player from thinking creatively.

The latter is generally the problem with the LG paladin...hell the alignment restricted ANYTHING. Alignment is often so narrowly defined as it generates what was termed "lawful stupid", where a player isn't actually lawful good, but are so terrified of losing 99% of their class features because actually doing good could be outside the law. That's the paradox of "lawful good", because really, lets look at many "good" historical figures. Ghandi. MLK JR. Rosa Parks. etc...

These people are generally considered champions of "good" and even fair laws, but all of them had to break existing laws in order to achieve their goals.

How do we differentiate between a "good" law that should be followed, and a "bad" law that shouldn't? The DM plays both the PC's god, and sets the social norms of the society the party is in. This is a clear conflict of interest. Obviously if LG Paladin Bob is in the LE Kingdom, then there are pretty much guaranteed to be laws and morals and social systems that are utterly repulsive to the concept of "good". But it is still a lawful kingdom, even if it's nature is evil. How does bob reconcile this? Does he follow the laws, thus being "lawful stupid", ie: the law is the law, no exceptions, and therefore not do good things? Or does he do good things, even if they are in violation of the law? Who determines if Bob is being lawful? Who determines if Bob is being good? I'll tell you who it's not: It's not Bob! It's Bob's DM.

Which is the ENTIRE problem. Bob is required to follow an alignment code that he gets NO SAY in. He doesn't get to decide between a good deed and a lawful one, the DM decides if his deed was good or lawful. So Bob stops thinking. Bob falls back into "lawful stupid", where Bob does whatever the DM says will allow him to keep his powers.

I LOVE that 4e eliminated this. 4e was the first edition that I could honest-to-goodness play a Paladin who was both lawful AND good. Because my Paladin could follow a code that I derived from the domains of my deity, not a code set down by my DM. My paladin believed in a fair rule of law, that bad laws should be broken, ignored, and overturned. My paladin believed in doing good, by smiting the wicked but not doing so out of anger or vengeance, but out of a desire to protect others. It was the best paladin I ever played because I actually got to play it!

So this is the problem with alignment restrictions, in short they either:
A: are meaningless because they're too ill-defined to matter.
B: force players to stop thinking because they're so narrow and their punishment so extreme as they make players not want to take the risk.

And that's not even getting into the subject of polarized DMs or those who actively try to challenge a party morally.

The powers of a Paladin are not even in the eensey-weensey, tiniest way cool or powerful enough to warrant the kind of BS that alignment restrictions cause. In any game where the DM has even a vague inkling of moral leanings, you're better off just playing an honorable fighter...who honestly will play much better and never even have to blink an eye at alignment restrictions, even if that fighter is lawful to a fault and good through and through, a LG Paladin gains nothing of value from their alignment compared to other classes, while they lose everything if they aren't.

That isn't fun. That's stupid.
Well that's just the wrong way to DM this. Paladins should never fall for struggling between Law and Good. You're supposed to be pulled between the two axes sometimes when you're on a diagonal alignment. A Paladin should only fall if they forsake Good for Evil or Law for Chaos.

So how does this square with your normal approach to the balance between classes?

-O
Idk, how does it not?
 


If the balance between classes is not important, why does the Paladin need a code of honor to balance their perks?

-O

They don't "need a code of honor to balance their perks". Or shouldn't. The code is there for flavor, verisimilitude, and to integrate them in the campaign world; it should not have anything to do with game balance. All IMO, of course.
 

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