Social Checks in Combat

[KahlessNestor]

So this happened, and I had to make a call about it when I realized (and couldn't find in PHB or DMG) that there are no rules for social checks in combat. In Pathfinder there are rules for Intimidate and Bluff in combat.

The player rolled to intimidate a goblin. He rolled a 6. I was going to just wave it off, as that wouldn't have beaten my first instinctive DC of 10. But then I thought, no, that should be an opposed roll Wisdom save. Still probably won't work. But I believe if you give up your action, you should at least maybe have a chance. I mean, he could have hit it with his warhammer or firebolted the goblin

So I rolled. A 2. -1 Wisdom. 1. Okay...so now what? No rules for this. I decided on a success the target is Frightened of you for 1 round. But that was such a failed save! So maybe fail by 5 or more, Frightened for 1d4 rounds (rolled a 3).

I have had characters want to roll Diplomacy and have ruled it won't work unless you spend an action. I did use a DC then, maybe 15? No one has succeeded, so I haven't had to decide what happens.

Bluff and Sense Motive I might give advantage on your attack, or disadvantage on their attack (like a free Dodge). Should be opposed rolls. (BvSM or SMvSM?)

So anyone else have ideas of what they do for Intimidate, Bluff, Diplomacy, and even Sense Motive in combat? Diplomacy I might be more stuck on.

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[Imaro]

So this happened, and I had to make a call about it when I realized (and couldn't find in PHB or DMG) that there are no rules for social checks in combat. In Pathfinder there are rules for Intimidate and Bluff in combat.

The player rolled to intimidate a goblin. He rolled a 6. I was going to just wave it off, as that wouldn't have beaten my first instinctive DC of 10. But then I thought, no, that should be an opposed roll Wisdom save. Still probably won't work. But I believe if you give up your action, you should at least maybe have a chance. I mean, he could have hit it with his warhammer or firebolted the goblin

So I rolled. A 2. -1 Wisdom. 1. Okay...so now what? No rules for this. I decided on a success the target is Frightened of you for 1 round. But that was such a failed save! So maybe fail by 5 or more, Frightened for 1d4 rounds (rolled a 3).

I have had characters want to roll Diplomacy and have ruled it won't work unless you spend an action. I did use a DC then, maybe 15? No one has succeeded, so I haven't had to decide what happens.

Bluff and Sense Motive I might give advantage on your attack, or disadvantage on their attack (like a free Dodge). Should be opposed rolls. (BvSM or SMvSM?)

So anyone else have ideas of what they do for Intimidate, Bluff, Diplomacy, and even Sense Motive in combat? Diplomacy I might be more stuck on.

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Why not find out what the intent of the player is? In other words what exactly are they trying to accomplish by intimidating, bluffing, etc. the NPC/monster in combat (this gives you your effect on a successful check)... and then decide the DC or bonus/penalty to the roll based on that answer. Am I trying to make the goblin run away? Surrender to my character? Or what. The other aspect I would say to think about is what happens on a failure... most of the time it'll probably be nothing... but it doesn't have to be.

 

[robus]

Intimidation is not guaranteed. As Imaro mentions above - what was the PC trying to accomplish with that approach? Does the goblin have any reason to respond to the intimidation? If no then it's an automatic fail and the goblin laughs at the PCs attempt. If the goblin doesn't want to be fighting (or dying) then perhaps it's an automatic success and the goblin runs away. The middle ground where you're not sure what the goblin would do in response is when you'd roll a dice to find out.

Things have to have some internal consistency (and as DM you're the one maintaining that consistency).

 

[KahlessNestor]

Well, the goblin was already trying to get away with his loot.

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[iserith]

Before we can even decide there is an ability check, we have to know what the players hopes to achieve and what the character does to achieve it. "I want to roll to intimidate the goblin..." tells us very little, certainly not enough for you as DM to be able to easily adjudicate and narrate. Once you know what they want to do and what plan they have to do it, the DC should be pretty easy to decide and it's probably either a 10, 15, or 20 for most things.

The action cost is another consideration. I would say that a good rule of thumb is that an action that essentially shuts down a monster, such as an intimidation attempt to get them to surrender, parlay, or flee, should cost as much in actions as a regular attack should. Building on the intimidation example, if the PC cannot kill the monster in a single turn of attacks (or perhaps two), then the attempt fails, no roll - the monster's still got too much fight left in it.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Would it be a DC or an opposed roll though?

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[Eric Strimple]

I generally rule that "If the player wants to affect change on the battlefield with their words, then it is an action." If a creature is at less than half hp I will let the player try to make them surrender via Intimidate check, if no one has acted in combat then a Diplomacy/Intimidate/Bluff to avoid the fight all together.

I would say general actions that can be achieved with Social checks in combat would be :

1. Diplomacy: Target has disadvantage on all attacks against you. (Or if you want to add a little more umph to it: Target must succeed on an opposed Wisdom Check or is unable to attack you since they no longer view you as a threat.)

2. Intimidation: Target is frightened for 1 round, plus one additional round for every 5 above the DC the player's roll was. (Or target flees the battlefield if his hp total is under 50%)

3. Deception: I would say same properties as Diplomacy and Intimidation based upon the type of lie being told. If it doesn't fall into either of those then give all players advantage on attack rolls against the target.

4. Insight: Player receives advantage on all saving throws incurred by the target, as well as the target having disadvantage on all attack against that player.

I generally think DC's should be set based up on the monster, a goblin would have a lower DC for Intimidate than Diplomacy for example, or you go with the opposed check model to reflect the target thinking on the fly.

Just my two cents.

 

[iserith]

Would it be a DC or an opposed roll though?

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Perception/Stealth or Insight/Deception aside, contests are really for when the monster and the PC are trying to accomplish the same thing which I don't think really applies in these sorts of scenarios.

 

[Barolo]

Would it be a DC or an opposed roll though?

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For simplicity sake I would define a DC based on the creature, circumstances and what the player is trying to accomplish. I disfavor opposed rolls as often as I can, because they are too swingy and may make resolution more complex than it really deserves.

 

[timbannock]

For simplicity sake I would define a DC based on the creature, circumstances and what the player is trying to accomplish. I disfavor opposed rolls as often as I can, because they are too swingy and may make resolution more complex than it really deserves.

In these instances Ability scores of the target (the goblin) would serve as a base DC. If the check is one that is for an Ability Score for which the creature has Proficiency on its Saving Throws or maybe has a skill rating that seems like it'd apply, then consider having that modify said DC.

For example, Intimidating a goblin is probably based on their Wis or Cha (which are the same: 8[-1]). So DC is 8 to Intimidate them. If you were trying to intimidate a Vampire, Wis is 15 and Cha is 18, so that DC is already higher. But then consider that they are proficient with both Wis and Cha saving throws, so it would be DC 17 or 19, respectively, because the DC is effectively 10 + Saving Throw bonus: Wis +7, Cha +9. That make sense?

That's how I run such things.