Social Checks in Combat

[iserith]

I would caution letting this go as a free action in the middle of a fight. Adding another roll would slow things down which is something 5e is trying to get away from. I can see some players adding a whole action in addition to the normal fighting action since they can now get something beneficial. Every round I can bluff to try and get advantage, even if it is a higher DC since I'm not using my real action- great, roll, roll, roll.

I do like being able to spend your action to get some of these benefits though. It does look like a very DM situation based DC though.

I agree - the greater the benefit, the higher the action cost in my view. And my position on that has really come from the players for the most part. I've seen players react negatively to what is essentially a "free action" shutting down an opponent or a combat. Especially when failing the check has no established downside. It strikes some players as essentially unfair and I can't help but agree with them. To that end, I try to balance out the effectiveness of social interaction with combat.

 

[mrpopstar]

So anyone else have ideas of what they do for Intimidate, Bluff, Diplomacy, and even Sense Motive in combat? Diplomacy I might be more stuck on.

Social interaction in 5th Edition concerns itself with goals, attitudes, and the outcome of conversations, so I find it generally inappropriate to call for Charisma checks in combat.

Feinting, goading, and menacing are the maneuvers of a learned battle technique (as far as the game is concerned). It is not intended that every creature have those options at their disposal.

In the scenario of intimidating a creature in combat, I would look to the optional rule for morale found in the Dungeon Master's Guide for guidance on the circumstances under which the creature might flee or surrender.

 

[77IM]

If you want a mechanics-first approach, consider comparison to grapple and shove maneuvers, and maybe a few of the DMG maneuvers (such as climb on a creature and disarm). Also you could consider hiding to be a similar action since it is also an opposed skill roll that tosses around a bunch of advantage/disadvantage.

Here is my first pass at specific actions:

Frighten
As an action, you can attempt to instill fear into a creature that can sense you, by threatening them with harm worse than what they've already suffered. Contest your Charisma (Intimidation) against the creature's Wisdom (Insight) or Charisma (Intimidation), whichever is better for the target. You may have advantage if your threats seem credible, or disadvantage if they do not, at the DM's discretion. You don't need to speak for this ability to work, although remaining silent may affect your credibility.

If you succeed, the target becomes frightened of you (see appendix A). At the end of each of their turns, they may make a Wisdom saving throw (DC 8 + your Charisma (Intimidation) modifier), ending the condition on themselves on a success. A frightened creature might decide to retreat, surrender, fight harder, change their tactics, or ignore you completely; the DM decides, based on the creature's personality and the circumstances.

Provoke
As an action, you can attempt to taunt a creature into a reckless rage, by hurling insults or interfering with their goals. Contest your Charisma (Persuasion) against the creature's Wisdom (Insight) or Charisma (Persuasion), whichever is better for the target. You may have advantage if you are threatening the creature's bonds or ideals, or disadvantage if the target perceives you as unimportant, at the DM's discretion. You don't need to speak for this ability to work, although remaining silent may affect your credibility.

If you succeed, the target becomes provoked. A provoked creature has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks against any creature except you, and can't move further away from you. At the end of each of their turns, they may make a Wisdom saving throw (DC 8 + your Charisma (Persuasion) modifier), ending the condition on themselves on a success. A provoked creature might decide to attack you, change their tactics, attempt to calm down, or ignore you completely; the DM decides, based on the creature's personality and the circumstances.

Distract
As an action, you attempt to trick a creature into looking away, by doing or saying something misleading ("lookout behind you!"). Contest your Charisma (Deception) against the creature's Wisdom (Insight) or Charisma (Deception), whichever is better for the target. You may have advantage if your distraction is very believable, or disadvantage if it's outrageous or if you've attempted to distract the target previously. You don't need to speak for this ability to work, although remaining silent may affect your credibility.

If you succeed, the target becomes distracted, until the end of their next turn. A distracted creature suffers disadvantage on all attack rolls; all attack rolls against them gain advantage; and any creature can attempt to hide from the distracted creature even if the distracted creature can see them. A distracted creature may decide to take a defensive action, attack the wrong target, move to a new location, change their tactics, or ignore you completely; the DM decides based on the creature's personality and circumstances.
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(Note that this is all exactly contrary to my previous advice. I don't generally run this way. But I've played in systems that do, such as 3.5 and M&M and Savage Worlds, and they can be quite enjoyable. Savage Worlds, in particular, has a very flexible and satisfying system for Tricks and Tests of Wills.)

 

[jasper]

jasper-Hello My name is jasper! I used to be an adventurer.
77IM "welcome"
Jasper well that was until I hit ninth level. I got frighten by an orc, then a black pudding provoke me in using my last javelin of lighting, and was distracted by a gelatinous cube all in the same round before my initiative. That is why I just a part time cook at the Yawning Portal.
.

 

[Hriston]

I treat all social interactions the same whether in or out of combat, and whether the speaker is skilled in Deception, Intimidation, or Persuasion. Speaking on your turn is part of the action economy after all, so I don't require the speaker to forgo an action or anything. I set a DC based on two main factors: the creature's attitude towards the PCs and whether it has anything to lose by cooperating with them. The goblin in the OP, for example is clearly hostile towards the PCs, meaning that it opposes their goals, which is why it's fighting them. A hostile creature will not take any risks for the PCs, so assuming the speaker's goal is to get the goblin to stop fighting, the situation would have to be such that the goblin has nothing to lose personally by cooperating with the PCs and allowing them to pursue their goal, in which case I'd set the DC at 20. If the speaker is offering for the PCs to abandon their goal that the goblin opposes in exchange for the cessation of fighting then I'd set the DC at 10. Of course, specific circumstances could modify the DC.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

I struck through the bit I think DM's should avoid - saying what the character is doing and thinking.

My point was to illustrate that characters know when players roll low. If the player rolled a 9 for a check, the character knows they didn't do a very good job.

 

[iserith]

My point was to illustrate that characters know when players roll low. If the player rolled a 9 for a check, the character knows they didn't do a very good job.

Sure, that's reasonable. I'm just saying I don't think the DM should be saying the parts I struck out.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I struck through the bit I think DM's should avoid - saying what the character is doing and thinking. I know that's a fairly common way of doing things and certain popular DMs in podcasts do it, but in my view this really encroaches on the player's role and further encourages players not to fully establish their goal and and approach. "Why bother if the DM is going to do it for me?"

Meh. My players do this kind of stuff for the monsters as often as I do it for the characters. It's just an everyone-tells-the-story approach. Of course, the player can veto (or better yet, modify) anything I suggest and vice-versa.

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[iserith]

Meh. My players do this kind of stuff for the monsters as often as I do it for the characters. It's just an everyone-tells-the-story approach. Of course, the player can veto (or better yet, modify) anything I suggest and vice-versa.

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I think this works at cross purposes to the advice a lot of folks are giving in this thread about players being more explicit and descriptive with regard to their characters' goals and approaches. DM and player sticking to their own roles alleviates or mitigates a lot of issues people report in their games in my experience including the one brought up as the topic of this thread.

Play as you wish, of course, it's just that DMs telling players what their characters do and think is stepping on the player's role and may result in players being less explicit and descriptive.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I think this works at cross purposes to the advice a lot of folks are giving in this thread about players being more explicit and descriptive with regard to their characters' goals and approaches. DM and player sticking to their own roles alleviates or mitigates a lot of issues people report in their games in my experience including the one brought up as the topic of this thread.

Play as you wish, of course, it's just that DMs telling players what their characters do and think is stepping on the player's role and may result in players being less explicit and descriptive.

Only if you always do it and treat it as how-it-should-be-done.

If you use it as a teaching tool, giving an example of what COULD be going on, and let the player confirm, deny, or use but modify for their own descriptions, it elevates those who start out not so good at descriptions.

So... I guess I'm saying I disagree that it works at cross-purpose.

You may have had DMs take over and describe everything for everyone colour your vision of it, but it's my experience that descriptions like in the original example teach everyone how to describe. I've actually never seen happen what you think are the drawbacks.

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