Social Checks in Combat

[iserith]

My games don't focus on mechanics or system mastery, but on story and the way the characters think and feel, about what's going on in the world at that exact moment. It's just that everyone is free to give ideas to everyone else on how their characters might think and feel or on what's going on in the world.

This goes back and forth between DM and players. Players might suggest what a monster is thinking, feeling, or doing in the story as much as the DM might do it to them. (In practice this doesn't happen as often as this is starting to sound - just when someone has what they think is a good suggestion. So here and there.)

I think there's a difference between:

DM: The villain [does a thing]. I bet that makes Ragnar pretty mad, right?
Tom (playing Ragnar): Hell yeah it does. "You'll pay for that!"

or

DM: The orc screams at it charges you down with its greataxe!
Tom: I imagine the orc thinks Ragnar's a threat because he's taller than the orc.
DM: Sure, let's go with that. He's got a case of small man syndrome when it comes to you!

and

Tom: I want to intimidate the orc.
DM: Sure, Charisma (Intimidation) check please.
Tom: *rolls* Only a 10.
DM: Okay, so you brandish your weapon and let out a fearsome warcry, even louder than the orc's. It is somewhat cowed by your display, but continues its assault unabated.

The first two are what I think of when you say your table is "making suggestions" to each other. And that's all good in my book! The third one is a case of the DM overstepping his or her role in my view by establishing what the character is doing because the player's description of what he wanted to do lacks an approach or even a clear statement as to the goal.

I probably do it most often (maybe even as a player, I don't know) because I'm good at it. It absolutely has to be understood as a suggestion not an override, and the players certainly get final say in their own character and the DM for the monsters and story.

Yes, in my experience, the DM is the one who does it most often and players often defer to it unless what was established is egregious. I was just remarking last week about how I was watching an actual play podcast where the players objected several times to what the DM said their characters were doing. This sort of situation seems easily avoided by asking the players to be clear about their goals and approaches even in the moment. "I want to intimidate the orc..." for example might be followed up with "Okay, how do you go about that and what specific effect do you hope to bring about?"

In fact, this came up for me at my session on Saturday. A player who plays in other games than mine said something along the lines of "Do I think that [XYZ] is going on here?" To which I responded, "I can't tell you what your character thinks. Do you want to do something? What's your goal and approach?" He thought about it and then came back with a goal and approach that I could then adjudicate.

Anyway, I may start a separate thread on this if I can figure out a way to frame the discussion to explore the approach and its origins without it turning into defense against a perceived attack.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I think there's a difference between:

DM: The villain [does a thing]. I bet that makes Ragnar pretty mad, right?
Tom (playing Ragnar): Hell yeah it does. "You'll pay for that!"

or

DM: The orc screams at it charges you down with its greataxe!
Tom: I imagine the orc thinks Ragnar's a threat because he's taller than the orc.
DM: Sure, let's go with that. He's got a case of small man syndrome when it comes to you!

and

Tom: I want to intimidate the orc.
DM: Sure, Charisma (Intimidation) check please.
Tom: *rolls* Only a 10.
DM: Okay, so you brandish your weapon and let out a fearsome warcry, even louder than the orc's. It is somewhat cowed by your display, but continues its assault unabated.

The first two are what I think of when you say your table is "making suggestions" to each other. And that's all good in my book! The third one is a case of the DM overstepping his or her role in my view by establishing what the character is doing because the player's description of what he wanted to do lacks an approach or even a clear statement as to the goal.



Yes, in my experience, the DM is the one who does it most often and players often defer to it unless what was established is egregious. I was just remarking last week about how I was watching an actual play podcast where the players objected several times to what the DM said their characters were doing. This sort of situation seems easily avoided by asking the players to be clear about their goals and approaches even in the moment. "I want to intimidate the orc..." for example might be followed up with "Okay, how do you go about that and what specific effect do you hope to bring about?"

In fact, this came up for me at my session on Saturday. A player who plays in other games than mine said something along the lines of "Do I think that [XYZ] is going on here?" To which I responded, "I can't tell you what your character thinks. Do you want to do something? What's your goal and approach?" He thought about it and then came back with a goal and approach that I could then adjudicate.

Anyway, I may start a separate thread on this if I can figure out a way to frame the discussion to explore the approach and its origins without it turning into defense against a perceived attack.

Yeah we've derailed things a bit.

I think we are actually on the same page now. The difference being more subtle than it looked.

I've just had enough times of:

"I intimidate the orc!

"How?"

"Uh... With intimidate."

That I describe examples to teach them how to do it better.

Sometimes, like with my current group, they get so into it that everyone helps everyone with everything.

(That would be my afterhours group, I also run AL with beginners and do demos on a regular basis, where it's a teaching tool.)

I really, really agree that a DM saying what a character thinks when the player disagrees and going "too bad, your character does what I say!" would be a reason to find a new DM.

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[iserith]

Yeah we've derailed things a bit.

I think we are actually on the same page now. The difference being more subtle than it looked.

I've just had enough times of:

"I intimidate the orc!

"How?"

"Uh... With intimidate."

That I describe examples to teach them how to do it better.

The odd thing about that though is that if I ask my 3-year old nephew how he might get the cookie jar on the counter that is out of his reach (the goal), he could tell me different ways to get it (the approach). Some of those will be automatic failure ("I make a cape out of a towel and fly!"), some automatic success ("I ask Uncle Iserith to get it for me!"), and some possible but uncertain ("I ask my mommy!"). He might even have a good idea how he would try to scare away a monster, having never played D&D in his life or, naturally, having very little in the way of life experiences compared to the average D&D player.

What my nephew doesn't have in the way of his ability to establish a goal and approach are an expectation that game mechanics might be involved. So one wonders why a 3-year-old can do what some DMs claim older folks playing a game cannot!

 

[FitzTheRuke]

The odd thing about that though is that if I ask my 3-year old nephew how he might get the cookie jar on the counter that is out of his reach (the goal), he could tell me different ways to get it (the approach). Some of those will be automatic failure ("I make a cape out of a towel and fly!"), some automatic success ("I ask Uncle Iserith to get it for me!"), and some possible but uncertain ("I ask my mommy!"). He might even have a good idea how he would try to scare away a monster, having never played D&D in his life or, naturally, having very little in the way of life experiences compared to the average D&D player.

What my nephew doesn't have in the way of his ability to establish a goal and approach are an expectation that game mechanics might be involved. So one wonders why a 3-year-old can do what some DMs claim older folks playing a game cannot!

Yes, same goes for inexperienced players often being better at the question "What do you DO?" than experienced ones.

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[Greenstone.Walker]

Since we are derailing this thread, here's another: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ibing-actions-not-rolls&p=7044373#post7044373