Societal conveniences by using core spells & items?

[Mr. Draco]

Also, as you move up a few levels, a wiz/sor with access to the Creation spells, Fabricate and/or Polymorph Any Object is capable of single-handedly wrecking any local economy...

Well, any of those spells would be very easily capable of wrecking an economy as we know it, but why should a DnD economy that has to deal with the creation/fabricate/polymorph work based on gold or silver or anything of that sort?

I mean, think about it, for a good to act as a successful store of value it has to be portable, difficult to counterfeit, easily divisible and transportable, and relatively indestructable.

In the modern world we use paper money because it's easy to deal with and has these characteristics. In a DnD campaign perhaps gold and/or silver would not be used, but maybe a different form of paper money, namely scrolls. Scrolls, as they are, cannot be duplicated by the fabricate/etc spells, and have all the characteristics of modern money except easy divisibility. So perhaps there could be a set series of scrolls with defined values:

i.e.- a single 1st level scroll is equivalent to today's dolar bill, then there's a single 2nd level scroll as the next higher denomination, etc... Now, this would make a certain group of spells very common in a campaign, but that shouldn't be a big problem.

For really large amounts of money, magic items would suffice to create a sort of bartering system.

For smaller amounts, perhaps coins with specific Arcane Marks would work? Or something to this effect.

So what do you all think?

 

[The Mad Kaiser]

Also, as you move up a few levels, a wiz/sor with access to the Creation spells, Fabricate and/or Polymorph Any Object is capable of single-handedly wrecking any local economy...

That's where Guilds come to play. The Guilds monopolize trade, and the Guilds hold considerable authority in city governments. Guilds regulate standards of quality in merchandise made and sold by their members, and penalties are invoked for "inferior merchandise". They issue marks to indicate who made a specific product. (Trademarks!) Buying and selling any unmarked goods is now a crime! Counterfieting marks is a crime!

This keeps the wizards out of the monopolies of trade, or regulates them to a degree where mundane crafts can compete. Fallacies about the nature of magic-created goods may also abound, likely spread by mundane guilds; "I heard that wizard-fabricated cloth causes baldness!" "Well I heard that Old Jom bought a polymorphed saddle from a wizard, and fell down dead the next day with that saddle in his arms."

This in turn creates power struggles, factions, black-mail, bribes, espionage, burgulary, murders, etc. More gaming fun!

 

[Flyspeck23]

I've never agreed with the sentiment that D&D cities would light up with Continual Flame. Just as there are portions of society that would like to see the lamps lit, there are those that prefer the darkness and shadows. As soon as this faction gains a spellcaster of suitable level, the continual effects are in trouble, as they cost money to (re)produce and dispel magic has no material component.

I like your reasoning, but there's a catch:
In RL it costs money to light the streets too, but you don't see criminals bashing the lights out on a regular basis (if at all).

OTOH, when I was a kid, streetlights could be "kicked out" - if you'd hit them hard enough the lights would go out until relit the next day. So that's what we did
Then again, I don't think most spellcasters would act childish...

 

[Yair]

My favorite effect is Control Weather to suit the weather to the ruler's desires. Yes, it is high-level, but with such a large area the entire city will only need one casting.

I have written two articles about this, but I am afraid they are quite old and not very good. Allow me to post the spells I have identified as important (3E) from the first article:

Alarm: Brd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1, 25 ft. radius, 2 hours/level

Animal Friendship: Drd 1, Rgr 1, HD=2x caster level

Animal Messanger: Clr 2, Drd 2, Rgr 2 1 day/level

Animate Dead: Clr 3, Death 3, Sor/Wiz 5 2 HD x caster level (50 gp/corpse)

Arcane Lock: Sor/Wiz 2 Permanent (25 gp)

Atonement: Clr 5, Drd 5 (500 gp focus, 500 XP)

Awaken: Drd 5 Instantenous, Tree of Animal (250 XP)

Bless Water: Clr 1, Pal 1 Instatenous (25 gp)

Break Enchantment: Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5

Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Brd 3, Knowledge 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Lead sheeting blocks it

Command Plants: Drd 8, Plant 8 1 day/level on plant creatures, HD=3 x caster level

Commune: Clr 5 (Holy Water&Incense, 100 XP) One question per character level

Commune with Nature: Drd 5, Animal 5 1 mile/level, 3 facts

Comprehend Languages: Clr 1, Wiz/Sor 1

Consecrate: Clr 2(Holy Water + 25 gp) 20’ radius, 2hours/level

Contact Other Plane: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5 1 question/2 levels

Continual Flame: Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 2 Torch-equivalent (50 gp)

Control Water: Brd 5, Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 6, Water 4 10 min/level, 10’/level x 10’ /level x 2’ /level

Control Weather: Air 7, Brd 6, Clr 7, Drd 7, Sor/Wiz 6 4d12 hours, 2 mile radius

Create Food and Water: Clr 3 24 hours, 3 humans/level for one day

Create (Greater) Undead: Clr 6, Death 6, Evil 6 / Clr 8, Death 8 Controlled through Turn Undead (Misc + 50 gp/HD/corpse)

Create Water: Clr 0, Drd 0, Pal 1 2 gallons/level

Cure (something) Wounds: Brd, Clr, Drd, Healing, Pal, Rgr

Curse Water: Clr 1 (25 gp) Affect good outsiders as blessed water affects undead

Demand: Sor/Wiz 8 (arcane connection) Arcane connection, as sending + suggestion

Desecreate: Clr 2, Evil 2 2 hours/level, 20’ radius (unholy water+ 25 gp)

Detect Evil: Clr 1, Rgr 1, Pal unlimited 60’, up to 10 minutes, a lot of matter or thin lead sheet block it

Detect Magic: Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0

Detect Scrying: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4 120’ radius, 24 hours

Detect Thoughts: Brd 2, Knowledge 2, Sor/Wiz 2 60’, up to 1 min/level

Detect Undead: Clr 1, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 1

Discern Lies: Clr 4, Pal 3 1 round/level, one subject at a time

Discern Location: Clr 8, Knowlegde 8, Sor/Wiz 8 Overcomes all barriers

Dismissal: Brd 4, Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 5

Dispel Evil: Clr 5, Good 5, Pal 4

Dispel Magic: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3 D20+caster level (max 10) vs DC 11 + caster level.

Divination: Clr 4, Knowledge 4 Within 1 week (25+ gp)

Dominate Person: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5 1 day/level, Will negates

Dream: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5

Endure Elements: Clr 1, Drd 1, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Strength 1, Sun 1 1 creature, 24 hours

Explosive Runes: Sor/Wiz 3

Fabricate: Sor/Wiz 5

False Vision: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5, Trickery 5 Radius=25’+5’/level, 1 min./level (250 gp)

Fire Trap: Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 4 When opens something (25 gp)

Flesh to Stone: Sor/Wiz 6

Forbiddance: Clr 6 60’ cube/level, Permanent, alignement & instant transport blocked, or password (1500+5000 gp/cube)

Gentle Repose: Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3 1 day/level

Glyph of Warding: Clr 3 (incense + 200 gp) Pass phrase, type, alignemnt etc., 1d8/2 caster level hp or 3rd level spell

Goodberry: Drd 1 1 day/level, 2d4 normal meals + 1 hp (max 8)

Greater Glyph of Warding: Clr 6 10d6 or 6th level spell (400 gp + incense)

Greater Scrying: Brd 6, Clr 7, Drd 7, Sor/Wiz 7 1 hour/level,

Guards and Wards: Sor/Wiz 6 (misc + umber hulk blood) 200 sq ft/level, 2 hours / level

Guidance: Clr 0, Drd 0 +1 to skill check

Hallow: Clr 5, Drd 5 (1,000 gp + 1,000 gp/spell-level) 10’/level radius, Inst., as magic circle against evil + undead. One year can apply another spell, including: Daylight, detect evil, detect magic, dimensional anchor, discern lies, dispel magic, endure elements, invisibility purge, tongues, silence, zone of truth.

Imp. Invisibility: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4

Invisibility: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2, Trickery 2

Invisibility Purge: Clr 3 1 min/level, 5’ radius/level

Ironwood: Drd 6 1 day/level

Knock: Sor/Wiz 2

Magic Jar: Sor/Wiz 5 (100 gp Focus)

Magic Mouth: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2

Make Whole: Clr 2

Mark of Justice: Clr 5

Mass charm: Sor/Wiz 8 1 Day/level, HD=2 x level

Mending: Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0

Misdirection: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Detect target another, 1 hour/level

Nondetection: Rgr 4, Sor/Wiz 3, Trickery 3 Hard to detect or scry, 1 hour/level (50 gp)

Obscure Object: Brd 2, Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 2 (chameleon skin) hides from location by a spell, 100 lb/lvel, 8 hours

Passwall: Sor/Wiz 5 1’’ per level, blocked by metal

Permamency: Sor/Wiz 5 Includes alarm (500 XP), magic mouth (1000 XP), phase door (3500 XP), prismatic sphere (4500 XP), symbol (4000 XP+10000 gp),

teleportation circle (4500 XP +1000 gp), wall of fire (2000 XP), wall of force (2500 XP)

Plant Growth: Drd 3, Plant 3, Rgr 3 Inst., ½ mile enrichment, overgrowth 100’

Purify Food and Drink: Cle 0, Drd 0 1cu ft/level

Quench: Drd 4

Raise Dead: Clr 5 (500 gp)

Reincanrnate: Drd 4

Remove Blindness/Deafness: Clr 3, Pal 3

Remove Curse: Brd 3, Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 4

Remove Disease: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 3, Rgr 3, Pal ability

Scrying: Brd 3, Clr 5, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 4 (0 drd, 100 clr, 1000 wiz gp focus)

See Invisibility: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 10 min/level

Sending: Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 5 25 words, anywhere

Sequester: Sor/Wis 7 Oen object, up to 2-ft cube per level, 1 day/level, invisibility+unscrying

Soften Earh and Stone: Drd 2, Earth 2 10’ sq./level (1-4’ deep), Inst., undresed stone only

Speak with Animals: Clr 2, Drd 2, Rgr 1 1 min/level,

Speak with Dead: Clr 3 1 min/level, 10’ to corpse, 1 q/2 caster levels, body must still have mouth

Speak with Plants: Clr 3, Drd 3, Rge 2 1 min/level

Stone Shape: Clr 3, Drd 3, Earth 3, Sor/Wiz 5 Inst., 10’ cu. + 1/level, crude shape only

Stone Tell: Clr 6

Symbol: Clr 8, Wiz/Sor 8 (10000 gp if lengthy) Includes password, attune individuals, alignment or actions. Guards portal or “reading”, 60’, opt of Permamence Death 150 hp, Discord, Fear 10 min/level, insanity, pain, persuation, sleep, stunning

Teleport: Sor/Wiz 5, Travel 5

Teleportation Circle: Sor/Wiz 9 (1000 gp) 10 min/level, without error

Telepoty Without Error: sor/Wiz 7, Travel 7 (1000 gp)

Temporal Stasis: Sor/Wiz 9(5000 gp)

Tonguews: Brd 2, Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 3 (small caly model)

Transmute Mud to Rock: Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 5 2 10’ cubes/level, perm

Transport via Plants: Drd 6 Any distance to same plant species

Tree Stride: Drd 5, Rgr 4 1 hour/level, teleport from tree to tree, limited but large range (6miles at 10 level)

Undetectable Alignment: Brd 2, Clr 2, Pal 2 24 hours

Wall of Iron: Sor/Wiz 5(50.x gp) Inst., 5’ sq./level, 1”(&30 hp 10 hardness)/4 caster levels

Wall of Stone: Clr 5, Drd 6, Earth 5, Sor/Wiz 5 Inst., 5’ sq./level, 1” (& 15 hp, 8 hardness)/4 caster levels

Whispering Wind: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 1 mile/10 minutes, 25 words, 1hour/level

Zone of Truth: Clr 2 5’ radius/level, 1min/levelmmun

 

[DaveStebbins]

I like your reasoning, but there's a catch:
In RL it costs money to light the streets too, but you don't see criminals bashing the lights out on a regular basis (if at all).

True, if a rogue needs to become very personally involved, he probably won't think it's worth his time, even if he would prefer a dark street.

OTOH, when I was a kid, streetlights could be "kicked out" - if you'd hit them hard enough the lights would go out until relit the next day. So that's what we did Then again, I don't think most spellcasters would act childish...

So, if it could be done relatively easily, say from a safe distance (medium range?), it might happen more often? It's not acting childish if there are people who prefer dark streets for their (or their associates') business at night.

In the end, either side can probably be justified. It depends on the 'feel' you prefer in your game. I like having variable lighting in my cities as it allows different levels of streetlighting for different cities and different sections within a city.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Well, an unskilled labourer would be be 1 silver a day, so about 36 gp for a year. And a skeleton can do the exact same work he can, but can do it day or night. Although he does need a lot more instruction, and will never turn into a skilled labourer.

I dunno if a skeleton can handle any unskilled laborer's job. Some, yes. All, no. Take a fairly typical ditch digger. "Dig a ditch waist deep and 6' wide. Use the wheelbarrow to move the spoil to that spot 150' away. The ditch should be from there to there. Come and get me when you're done." Too complicated for undead. Same goes for things like carrying messages; they won't deal well with anything unforeseen.

The undead generally only work well in very large tasks, with dozens of workers performing simple, repetitive tasks or where there's a taskmaster that would also be a cleric.

Where I've used skeletons is to power mills. A dozen zombies working a windlass provide quite a bit of power. No need for a millpond, stream, or wind. Doesn't even need a cleric around if you can build a transmission; just let the buggers keep going in circles.

The invention of the steam engine made a lot of things possible. Powered looms, industrial water pumps, cranes, even the locomotive.

OTOH, if crafts and professions are also crewed by skeletons, you have a large unemployment problem, not to mention a gradual death of skills when apprentices don't carry on the trade...

Not entirely true. You have a large number of unskilled laborers who need to become semi-skilled laborers. There are plenty of tasks that require more independent brainpower than a zombie can muster but don't require copious amounts of training. Basically, anything that requires any amount of judgement beyond "yes/no" requires the living, along with communication of complex information.

The industrial revolution created a sizeable quantity of jobs, though they weren't jobs the populace was used to.

Then you're into wall of stone, fabricate and the like which basically make non-wizard craftsmen totally redundant.

To a point. The problem is that wizards are the equivalent of college graduates. They will wish to be paid at their level, so a casting of wall of stone or fabricate would expect payment of 450gp. If you can hire mundanes to build a wall of stone for less than 450gp you will. Since Fabricate requires a caster with skill, which likely adds an additional price. Which means 90% of the time, mundane craftsmen will be sufficient. The times mages would be more useful would be areas where stone is difficult to transport or if someone needs it in a hurry, making it a specialty service.

 

[Nifft]

IMC, creating expensive substances costs XP.

The main lower planar currency, the Infernal Coin (a large Greensteel coin set with the glowing sigil of Asmodeus, worth about 100 gp each), is backed by soul larvae.

All "high-powered" currency will be valued in XP.

-- N

 

[Henry]

Advice services might well spring up; Mistress Cleo becomes a REAL psychic, with spells like Augury available. If you could pay someone to tell you if your capital investment brought you "weal" or "woe," would you pay to find out?

New laws would have to be determined for Awakened animals and plants; It may be an oddity, but having an awakened Ape, Dog, Tree, etc. holding a position in a town council or a governmental job would be possible!

Endure elements would become standard equipment for any workers doing work in a hostile environment, especially in extreme cold or extreme heat environs; if you can do the work but without cold weather gear bogging you down, it would be something well worth taking.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Create Food and Water: Clr 3 24 hours, 3 humans/level for one day

Plant Growth: Drd 3, Plant 3, Rgr 3 Inst., ½ mile enrichment, overgrowth 100’

These would be the two big ones, IMHO. It's nice to have a perma-lamps and elementals, but if your society is agrarian it just isn't going to go forward that fast because 75%+ of the population is busy making food.

 

[hong]

Could a hand of the mage (mage hand at will) be useful to a society at 450gp each? What regular use would creative minds get out of this?

You know the answer already.


Hong "but is it the left hand or the right hand?" Ooi