Some crunch from Rich Baker

[ProfessorCirno]

Tough cookies. You'll also have to change something else.

D&D is not Fantasy Toolkit #3.

What? Yes, yes it is. That's always been the primary purpose of D&D.

...What the hell? Can people actually believe that?

 

[Derren]

D&D is not Fantasy Toolkit #3.

D&D is a toolkit system which also has some example settings. Its not like Shadowrun where one specific setting is assumed.

 

[Scipio202]

D&D is a toolkit system which also has some example settings. Its not like Shadowrun where one specific setting is assumed.

Sure, but to be a toolkit it just needs to be easy to modify/houserule. D&D can do that while still having strong default archetypes undergirding each class - and thus default defining class features.

Edit: To clarify, I think its important that the system is flexible enough to make clerics who can't turn in a reasonable & balanced way, but I do think its good that the default class has a "feel" which is based on iconic abilities.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I'm disappointed that Clerics have to spend feat(s) to get powers specific to their deity.

 

[MindWanderer]

What? Yes, yes it is. That's always been the primary purpose of D&D.

...What the hell? Can people actually believe that?

Although I agree with you, yes, many people do believe that. D&D used to be a generic Tolkieneque fantasy simulator, but of late, and especially in 4e, it's become a lot less generic and a lot more "Welcome to the World of Dungeons & Dragons." The presence of dragonborn and tieflings in core, the sample art for nonhuman-forged weapons (have you seen those silly dwarf and dragonborn weapons?), the invention of huge numbers of monsters that are iconic neither to traditional fantasy nor old-school D&D, all take us away from Fantasy Toolkit thinking.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Although I agree with you, yes, many people do believe that. D&D used to be a generic Tolkieneque fantasy simulator, but of late, and especially in 4e, it's become a lot less generic and a lot more "Welcome to the World of Dungeons & Dragons." The presence of dragonborn and tieflings in core, the sample art for nonhuman-forged weapons (have you seen those silly dwarf and dragonborn weapons?), the invention of huge numbers of monsters that are iconic neither to traditional fantasy nor old-school D&D, all take us away from Fantasy Toolkit thinking.

Actually, I think the opposite is happening. In previous editions, D&D hewed pretty closely to Tolkienesque fantasy. With the addition of the dragonborn and tieflings and the simplification of the planes, I think 4e shows how D&D is broadening the base of the fantasy it draws from (that is, sword and sorcery, which is different from Tolkien). I think in 4e it'll be easier than ever to drop races here and add others there. The "generic-ness" of the 4e planes will also make it easier for DMs to discard them and replace them with something more to there liking.

 

[malraux]

D&D is a toolkit system which also has some example settings. Its not like Shadowrun where one specific setting is assumed.

That's hard to square with the example setting being placed in the core 3 books.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Actually, I think the opposite is happening. In previous editions, D&D hewed pretty closely to Tolkienesque fantasy. With the addition of the dragonborn and tieflings and the simplification of the planes, I think 4e shows how D&D is broadening the base of the fantasy it draws from (that is, sword and sorcery, which is different from Tolkien). I think in 4e it'll be easier than ever to drop races here and add others there. The "generic-ness" of the 4e planes will also make it easier for DMs to discard them and replace them with something more to there liking.

Eh, I think 4e is drawing away from one brand of generic and drawing close to a different brand of generic. Dragonborn and tieflings are just as generic as elves, they just come from a different subculture.

 

[PeterWeller]

It's kind of a mix of both. They're trying to establish a stronger core identity for the fluff, but they're also drawing from a wider array of material and sources to generate that identity.

 

[Incenjucar]

There is no core setting, it's just implied setting features.

I'm just really annoyed that they keep making clerics into Flyzappers vs. Undead.

It's like making the default wizard type a Necromancer or the default ranger a Giant Slayer.

We need a more generic priest class already.