D&D 5E Some things I don't care for in the D&D culture

If I wasn't a DM there would be nothing really for me to do in your version of D&D outside of game time. Tinkering with mechanics and builds is a mini game - outside of regular game time - that many many many people enjoy.

Although its only marginally related to the topic, this made me think of something I hadn't before. What sorts of things, other than mechanical bits, can players do between sessions? Maybe I'll start another thread (or someone else can feel free if they find it interesting--it may take me a while to get to it).
 

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DaveDash

Explorer
Although its only marginally related to the topic, this made me think of something I hadn't before. What sorts of things, other than mechanical bits, can players do between sessions? Maybe I'll start another thread (or someone else can feel free if they find it interesting--it may take me a while to get to it).

I remember way back in the third edition days, they ran arena competitions on the WoTC forums. It was well organised and had a lot of structure in place.

Kinda like D&D PvP.
 

S'mon

Legend
It's fine if you want to completely dismiss that style of play, but I understand that the huge majority of gamers want that style of game, and I myself enjoy it and will quite happily cater for it.

This is the complete opposite of my experience - IME people who have played computer games then come to RPGs do so because they are dissatisfied with the CRPG or MMORPG experience. People who want to replicate the MMORPG on the tabletop are a small minority at best.

Edit: Of course there are far more MMORPG players than TTRPGers. Only a minority of MMORPG players are interested in what TTRPGs have to offer.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
IMHO the MMO players can stay plugged into their computers for all I care. I'm not going to run WOW on the tabletop to cater to them. If they want a tabletop rpg game then they should expect play to be quite different from an MMO. A tabletop game is first and foremost a social gathering. Playing together and having fun as a group is more important than who has what bonuses to this or that.
That is in large part, the point of MMOs as well.

Arguments such as yours are quick to forget that MMOS were originally little different than some of the online gaming groups people on these very boards run. They were a campaign that was given visuals and the rules coded into the system, much like Fantasy Grounds or even the game WoTC is working on right now for online play.

Obsessing over builds and mechanical capabilities as a thought excise is one thing, inflicting it on a table of players is another. The worst aspect of that behavior is that it has a very introverted focus.
This isn't a result of MMOs and it has never been isolated to MMO gamers. People have been doing this in D&D for decades and while some systems have made that easier than others, blaming this on MMO gaming is erroneous.

Players have fun during a rpg session in many different ways. .... Helping everyone in the group have a good and memorable time is far more important than using a particular build or squeezing every drop of cheese out of the rules as possible.
These statements are contradictory. Either players have fun their own way, or the only way to have fun is by ensuring everyone has a good social experience.

You can munchkin and have a good social experience at the same time.
 

Dausuul

Legend
These statements are contradictory. Either players have fun their own way, or the only way to have fun is by ensuring everyone has a good social experience.

You can munchkin and have a good social experience at the same time.
Mmm... I would draw a distinction between "munchkining" and "power gaming." Power gaming is where you try and squeeze every bit of performance out of your build, plan optimal tactics based on careful reading of the rules, and so forth. It is possible to power game in a pro-social way, even when you're the only power gamer in the campaign. You just need to design your character so that you don't overshadow the other PCs in their own areas of expertise. If you're the party fighter, focus on fighting; don't try to out-sneak the rogue or out-heal the cleric. Ideally, you can use your tactical mastery to boost the entire group. Also, don't try to use the letter of the rules to subvert the spirit, since that usually leads to butting heads with the DM.

Munchkining is the pathological form of power gaming, where you try to "win D&D" at the expense of everyone else at the table. Power gaming can be done in a way that improves everyone's fun, but a munchkin is a jerk by definition.
 

Munchkining is the pathological form of power gaming, where you try to "win D&D" at the expense of everyone else at the table. Power gaming can be done in a way that improves everyone's fun, but a munchkin is a jerk by definition.

True. Although munchkins can be very entertaining to read about. See "Harry Potter and the Natural 20," starring a hilarious munchkin who lampshades the non-munchkin tendencies of his friends.

'Another peculiarity in these people was the inordinate amount of down time they required. Milo had to spend eight hours sleeping and an hour memorizing spells, but that left fifteen hours a day to put to use attending class, fighting monsters, and crafting items off-screen. Milo knew an Artificer by the name of Alton who, when he finally got his hands on a Ring of Sustenance, spent two hours sleeping, eight hours crafting magic items (the maximum amount per day) and the other fourteen hours in a day mass-producing baskets to fund his adventuring. Alton did that every day for three hundred years straight, with breaks to fight monsters to recover lost Experience Points, until he'd amassed a fortune large enough to attract the attention of a wandering Blue Dragon. Alton's unfortunate demise aside, it was just good sense to put their hours to use—they were only given twenty-four in a day, after all. And besides, manual labour was the sort of thing done during a timeskip, anyways, it's not like it got in the way of the story. Even Hermione seemed shocked by the amount of time he spent reading and working. In just one week, Milo managed to custom-tailor his fifth-hand Hogwarts uniform (untrained, but with +2 for masterwork tools (which Milo also made himself) and +4 from his Intelligence) until it rivalled Draco's in quality, read more books than any of his classmates (save Hermione) could in a year, and carve holy symbols of Pelor, Heironeous, St. Cuthbert, and Boccob into key locations around Gryffindor Tower. That had earned him some strange looks, despite the fact that the residents there were fully aware that there were vampires on the same continent as them. That was all in addition to the daily chores all first year Gryffindors were required to do as punishment for trying to kill or maim the Slytherins back in September. Milo theorized that, while he had to spend an hour poring over his spellbook, performing arcane research, and memorizing spells every morning, the Wizards here had to spend at four to eight hours a day (judging by comparisons between Hermione and Ron, it was an amount of time equal to eight minus their Intelligence Bonus, in hours per day) sitting around on armchairs and talking about the weather.'
 

You can munchkin and have a good social experience at the same time.

Only in table loaded with other munchkins. If you have that utopia then all is well. In a regular group, someone who is only out to have their fun at the expense of others is a fun vampire and needs to be staked from the table.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Only in table loaded with other munchkins. If you have that utopia then all is well. In a regular group, someone who is only out to have their fun at the expense of others is a fun vampire and needs to be staked from the table.

One of these things is not like the other.

Munchkins are not necessarily fun vampires and there are plenty of non-munchkins who are fun vampires. I've played with plenty of people who are not munchkins and still impossible to have fun around.

Selfishness is a separate issue from powergaming.

Mmm... I would draw a distinction between "munchkining" and "power gaming." Power gaming is where you try and squeeze every bit of performance out of your build, plan optimal tactics based on careful reading of the rules, and so forth. It is possible to power game in a pro-social way, even when you're the only power gamer in the campaign. You just need to design your character so that you don't overshadow the other PCs in their own areas of expertise. If you're the party fighter, focus on fighting; don't try to out-sneak the rogue or out-heal the cleric. Ideally, you can use your tactical mastery to boost the entire group. Also, don't try to use the letter of the rules to subvert the spirit, since that usually leads to butting heads with the DM.

Munchkining is the pathological form of power gaming, where you try to "win D&D" at the expense of everyone else at the table. Power gaming can be done in a way that improves everyone's fun, but a munchkin is a jerk by definition.

I think that's a bit of splitting hairs but I've mostly seen powergaming and munchkinnning used interchangably. In any case what you're stating is exactly what I'm saying:

An un-fun player is an un-fun player. Be they munchkin or actor. I've played with a couple theater majors who were seriously un-fun because it was impossible to role-play anywhere near their level, they were essentially role-play powergamers and by intention or otherwise they made the game un-fun. I'm sure they were having fun and they generally weren't trying to make everyone feel bad (after-game talks determine which were which) they were just doing what they loved.

But being un-fun is separate from playstyle and often a matter of perspective. If you find someone else un-fun, it may not be entirely on them.
 


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