Some Thoughts on Revising Multi-classing feats

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm aware of the danger, here, but I'm not really convinced by it - especially not in this example. The Fighter gets most of its benefit from marking when the marked opponents are adjacent to the fighter - Combat Challenge (combined with Combat Superiority - the combination is a real hard lock!) is generally far more of a control than the -2 to hit from a mark. That generally means that Area powers are not that big a deal. Close powers are very useful for the fighter - but they get several of those already. Better yet, they get Close powers that pull enemies towards them, rather than push them away*.

A more problematic issue might be a fighter getting Wizard control powers that make damaging zones that the fighter can move enemies into, but given the action economy I'm not even sure that that is too big a deal.

Overall, for most non-At-Will powers, I'm not convinced that there is really a problem; the MC character is paying at least a feat for the ability to swap anyway (so, arguably, it should/could be a teensy bit better than a power from their own class). Individual powers might cause an issue (I haven't checked through them all), but as a general rule I don't see a problem.

*: I should say that I have a PC Dragonborn Fighter I run for; they get dragon breath Close Burst that marks every target. We have been playing from level 1 to early Epic, so far, and it's really not a big issue.

I think it was a more radical concept in the PHB1 days when you had 8 classes that had NO real way to get each other's powers except the MC feat chain. There were a lot less powers back then, and giving your fighter some sort of area burst at range 10 power doesn't seem bad. Nowadays its just not THAT hard to get a power from another class (leaving hybrids as a bit different question). So, yeah, if you have to take 2 feats and then you can just swap by retraining and get many of the other class' powers its not like the character couldn't have gotten the one or two really most useful powers anyway (and how many people will take more than a small number of the other class' powers probably anyway, unless its a really poor class like Seeker with crap powers).

The at-will seems to be the key thing to reserve for PMCing. That's sort of the cream and it makes a pretty good incentive to PMC. There definitely need to be other ones, especially since you're basically taking away the rest of what PMC got, power swaps.

The other alternative of course is to add a couple more Paragon feats and just forget about PMCs entirely. If you take those feats you can get access to the other things your 2nd class does, and the at-will, and you're basically all set, you can still take a PP. "Paragon Multi Class" can be the generic feat that gives you the at-will.

 

[sabrinathecat]

Wardens already mark everything adjacent to them. Suppose you had a fighter who had MC into Invoker, and cast Hell-fire Chain Lightning (sorry if I got the class wrong). Sure, that would let him mark all enemies within 25 or 40, or whatever. He'd still only get fighter challenge against 1 of them, and if they aren't adjacent, he has no way to do that. What it does mean is that he's inviting a whole bunch of attacks on his head. And he's giving up his own class-power to do it. And it may not be a power based on the same stat, or even a secondary stat. That alone is going to hamper MC choices. How many high-int fighters are there that are going to MC into Wizard? Sure, it can be done, but how effective are they going to be? That alone will take care of most of the "too powerful to mix" concerns.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Wardens already mark everything adjacent to them. Suppose you had a fighter who had MC into Invoker, and cast Hell-fire Chain Lightning (sorry if I got the class wrong). Sure, that would let him mark all enemies within 25 or 40, or whatever. He'd still only get fighter challenge against 1 of them, and if they aren't adjacent, he has no way to do that. What it does mean is that he's inviting a whole bunch of attacks on his head. And he's giving up his own class-power to do it. And it may not be a power based on the same stat, or even a secondary stat. That alone is going to hamper MC choices. How many high-int fighters are there that are going to MC into Wizard? Sure, it can be done, but how effective are they going to be? That alone will take care of most of the "too powerful to mix" concerns.

Replace Wizard with Invoker. Wisdom is a secondary stat for Fighters, after all. And inviting those attacks against my fighter could be exactly what I want - that's why I am the Defender. And again, I still have all those neat utility powers. (Though I wonder if the Wizard's Shield power isn't better than most 2nd level Fighter Utility Powers, but then, I thought "think Invoker") And not all enemies at distance are good at ranged combat - they might have to strike at the parties Striker now with a -2 penalty they can't avoid.

I definitely build a Figther/Wizard for a one-shot once, and it seemed to work well, but that was a one-shot, I don't want to pretend that it is proof of anything. (But it was before Staff Expertise.)

Anyway, this is just an example that I know because I experimented with. I am not the WotC charOp boards

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Anyway, do you think that the swap+extra feat ideas won't work?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Wardens already mark everything adjacent to them. Suppose you had a fighter who had MC into Invoker, and cast Hell-fire Chain Lightning (sorry if I got the class wrong). Sure, that would let him mark all enemies within 25 or 40, or whatever. He'd still only get fighter challenge against 1 of them, and if they aren't adjacent, he has no way to do that. What it does mean is that he's inviting a whole bunch of attacks on his head. And he's giving up his own class-power to do it. And it may not be a power based on the same stat, or even a secondary stat. That alone is going to hamper MC choices. How many high-int fighters are there that are going to MC into Wizard? Sure, it can be done, but how effective are they going to be? That alone will take care of most of the "too powerful to mix" concerns.

I think the main concern is easy of exploitation of a few very universally tempting powers. Pretty much ANY weapon user will be highly tempted to MC with Ranger for instance. It simply has some very potent multi-attack powers, and in 4e's system those are generally superior options. The same goes for fishing for specific class features, especially if you can get them at more than encounter use (though really often encounter is enough). We saw this with for instance the Hybrid Swordmage where the Shielding Aegis is VERY effective to the point where its almost literally true that any single classed character in 4e would be better as a Swordmage hybrid (and the rest would be better as Ranger hybrids). The high cost of MCing and the extremely limited access to MC class features made these considerations marginal, but I suspect there is a very fine line between too expensive and "everyone should get this", and that line varies a lot depending on what class we're talking about.

 

[sabrinathecat]

I think the current system (feat to swap for each power) is over-taxing.
Yes, there is room for abuse, but that is true of any rule.
I would axe all the expertise feats for a straight +1/+2/+3 tier bonus, or build the monster so their defenses fit (which is usually where they are--just the last few levels get tougher). Come on, in one game I'm running, the rogue, who does not have expertise, is hitting at-level monsters on a 5. FIVE!!!
I'd rather ditch the Paragon Multi-Class path for a straight feat that grants more access to powers (the second-class at-will)
Most of the class features that are gained by multi-classing are only for one round per encounter or once per day. Not nearly as threatening as some seem to be fearing.