Something Awful leak.

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yep! Like @Incenjucar mentioned, a "page 42"-style reference would be quite handy, as long as that reference was more robust.

That is, it gives me a way to find a baseline that makes sense, and that sensible baseline can than handle whatever my PC's throw at it. Given 5e's dependence on ability scores, a handy way to generate ability scores for NPC's that are appropriate for a given level (level 0 or level 1 in the cat's case, I imagine) might hit the spot perfectly, along with attacks, damages, and skill check results (lets not leave out social and exploration pillars! What happens if the druid tries to befriend the cat? And then sends it out to scout for traps?).

That's a Page 42 that's quite a bit expanded from where it is now, but I absolutely think it's within the scope of things.

And some folks would probably use that guideline to construct housecat stats from scratch just because they wanted to anyway.

But I am pretty much over other folks telling me what my games should and should not be like. I wanna have an 18-cat combat in the house of the Crazy Cat Lady? I want my wizard to acquire a cat familiar? I want a normal housecat suddenly filled with the evil influence of something (like Rabies?) to leap out of the tree at a local blacksmith and I need rules for how long that blacksmith lasts before the cat kills him? WotC needs to give me something I can use to resolve this, not tell me that I shouldn't even need stuff in the first place.

3e, for all its flawed philosophy of "a stat for everything!" wound up less than ideal, did not disappoint me in this regard. 4e, with its philosophy of "Figure out what is for combat, and what is for not-combat, and here's the combat things, and the not-combat things don't matter," was a lot more problematic for my playstyle.

Here's the thing though. The rules, 3e, 4e, whatever, have never been very well-suited to dealing with a fight with a cat. For every one thing that a cat stat block DOES let me do that I would want to do with that cat, there are 3 other things that it just gets in the way of.

I feel like I'm actually better off and faced with less wrong choices when I don't have that stat block staring at me. I really like that aspect of 4e. It just doesn't try to do bad simulation of anything. It isn't pretending that it can run a fight between your neighbor's kid and a stray down the alley in any way that is likely to advance a plot or provide a really interesting encounter. On the OUTSIDE chance that such a stat block IS useful, I can invent exactly the one I want.

There's also the question of what is more useful, a page dedicated to a housecat or one dedicated to some more relevant monster....

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Re: The leak, and not the discussion on housecats:

I see people still have a hard time grasping that by it's nature, most 4e-like material will HAVE to be in additive modules and as such would quite obviously be left out of a first-round playtest.

Also, as far as the cut-and-paste-text goes, there's no point in giving the rules a unified feel until much much later in the design process. How it was once worded would certainly do until a final few passes on the text.

We're a long way off.

 

[GreyICE]

Really? Has to be in the optional manuals?

Because I see defenses for each individual stat, and that seems dumb and nonsensical.

The 4E design philosophy is 'balanced, coherent, streamlined' and nothing about 6 defenses is any of that.

 

[Savage Wombat]

You don't have six defenses, you have six stats. If you can't keep track of your basic stats after years of playing D&D...

 

[JamesonCourage]

Here, I made up some stats for you:

House-cat
Level 1 Minion
Tiny Natural Beast
Init +2
AC 12 Reflex 12 Fort 6 Will 10
Speed 6

Standard Actions:
Bite Melee +4 vs AC: Deal 1 damage to a tiny size, or smaller, level 1 Natural Beast Minion.

Minor Actions:
Claw Melee +2 vs Reflex: Grab and knock prone target tiny size, or smaller, level 1 Natural Beast Minion.

Out of curiosity, does this mean that a cat can kill any other cat in one hit, which lands about 2/3 the time?

Anyways, in my game, penalties can reduce your damage to 0, so a cat could be statted up to often deal zero damage. However, creatures deal +4 damage per size category larger they are, so it'd deal damage to diminutive (rats, lizards) or smaller creatures (crickets, flies, etc.). I also don't give higher Strength scores to larger creatures (but I do give higher carrying capacity, damage versus smaller creatures).

I also have a feat that could be added to any race that gives 2 damage reductive per size category above the attacker. So, a human with the feat might have 2 DR against a dog, 4 against a cat, 6 against a rat, and 8 against a bee.

Between these two measures, I feel pretty secure in the system. Is it more than people like to remember? Sure. It's easy for me, and it models what I want, so it works for me. I doubt we'll see anything this "fiddly" in 5e, though. As always, play what you like

 

[GreyICE]

You don't have six defenses, you have six stats. If you can't keep track of your basic stats after years of playing D&D...

And, according to the leaked document, each individual stat is used to defend against different forms of attacks. So a spell might target your charisma, a poison your constitution, something else your wisdom or dex.

I guess it's a tad much to expect everyone to have read the leaked document, but can you at least refrain from attacking people on the basis of something you're entirely ignorant of?

 

[Savage Wombat]

And, according to the leaked document, each individual stat is used to defend against different forms of attacks. So a spell might target your charisma, a poison your constitution, something else your wisdom or dex.

I guess it's a tad much to expect everyone to have read the leaked document, but can you at least refrain from attacking people on the basis of something you're entirely ignorant of?

Try understanding what I wrote before you claim ignorance on MY part. And maybe learn how to comport yourself appropriately on this forum.

You do not have "defenses" - like, say, a Fortitude Defense based on your Str or Con. You have your Strength stat. An attack targets your Strength stat, and you defend with that.

The way you (and some others) are acting, it's like you have to calculate six additional defenses on top of your stats. Which does not appear to be the case.

 

[Incenjucar]

You don't have six defenses, you have six stats. If you can't keep track of your basic stats after years of playing D&D...

Those stats are all defenses.

So there are now at least seven defenses (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha, AC). They might all get a variety of separate modifications - almost required if you can still get a 20 in one stat and an 8 in another.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Those stats are all defenses.

So there are now at least seven defenses (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha, AC). They might all get a variety of separate modifications - almost required if you can still get a 20 in one stat and an 8 in another.

You keep acting like this is some kind of new, additional burden being placed upon you. You had six stats and AC from the very beginning. In fact, you originally had five saving throw categories as well.

3E reduced that number - you now had your six stats, your AC (and some variants) and your three saves.

In 4E you had six stats, AC, and three "defenses".

Now you just have six stats and AC.

Why is this somehow adding complexity?

Is this simply concern about the possibility of having to use a low stat for defense?

 

[Incenjucar]

You keep acting like this is some kind of new, additional burden being placed upon you. You had six stats and AC from the very beginning. In fact, you originally had five saving throw categories as well. 3E reduced that number - you now had your six stats, your AC (and some variants) and your three saves.

In 4E you had six stats, AC, and three "defenses".

Now you just have six stats and AC.

Why is this somehow adding complexity?

I have four stats. AC. Ref. Fort. Will. I have one saving throw target number. I left the piles of saving throws in the dust along with Parachute Pants. I don't want that complexity back anymore than I want to have to use a telegraph now that I have the internet.

Is this simply concern about the possibility of having to use a low stat for defense?

It's having to track seven numbers instead of four numbers. Increasing my number-tracking burden by 75% doesn't do me any favors. The low stat issue just means that they'll have to add in some bonuses which will make your actual stats useless references anyway.