Something Awful leak.

[Savage Wombat]

Congratulations on having had girlfriends. And I don't think most people here have no memory of the basic building blocks of any character but the one they're currently playing.

So, to sum up: I'm sorry, but it looks like in D&DN you'll be expected to know your character's CON score.

 

[Incenjucar]

I doubt that the majority of people here could recite all six of their current character's stats. Moreover, having to track more stats is having to track more stats. Defenses change, and it sounds like they're bringing back impermanent stat changes, so you'll have three extra numbers that are constantly changing to keep track of. It's more work for no visible gain.

 

[Savage Wombat]

And I believe the majority of them could.

Just because you don't see the benefits doesn't mean there's no visible gain. You're not gaining three things to keep track of, you're losing three stats that no longer need to be derived from other stats.

 

[dkyle]

I can easily remember the stats my high-school wizard Theodrik had. I don't remember his saving throws. I don't remember the saving throws of my most current characters. But I know their stats, because those are the base factors from which everything else derives.

I can't say that I remember any specific stats of any character, at this time. But I can say that I very often remembered the things I used most in combat, at the time I was playing. That was 6 numbers in 4E (defenses, attack bonus, damage bonus), which becomes 9 in 5E.

When I say memorize, I don't mean in an intentional way, and for all time, recallable on demand at any moment. Just the natural osmosis that occurs when using a small set of numbers repeatedly, where a person just knows it without consciously memorizing it. The more numbers being used, the less likely this is to occur.

Also, base stats are not the only base factors from which everything else derives. You'd also have to memorize what bonus you got from your class(es). When your DM asked you to roll a Reflex save, did you do mental arithmetic every time, deriving it from your memorized DEX, and a class mod you also memorized?

I have trouble imagining that hordes of D&D players can instantly recall their Reflex save / defense, but can't quite remember what their Dex is.

Well, I can't speak to hordes. But I can say that in playing 4E, I almost never knew what my ability scores were without looking at a sheet. I often would know if an attack roll against me would hit or miss, and what to add to d20 rolls for attacks, without looking.

 

[Incenjucar]

Deriving is only done at level-up. After that, you're spared three things to keep track of.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Seems to me like you guys would prefer to be playing a system that didn't use stats at all. This may be one of the core issues of your dislike.

 

[Incenjucar]

Seems to me like you guys would prefer to be playing a system that didn't use stats at all. This may be one of the core issues of your dislike.

Nope. Stats are great for describing a character's basic structure. I like 4E's use of stats just fine, hyper-focus issues aside. I just don't want ADDITIONAL stuff to track. It's a Goldilocks thing, Papa Bear.

 

[Ratinyourwalls]

This leak makes me so mad that my nose is bleeding.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Nope. Stats are great for describing a character's basic structure. I like 4E's use of stats just fine, hyper-focus issues aside. I just don't want ADDITIONAL stuff to track. It's a Goldilocks thing, Papa Bear.

And you're back to my original point. No one's giving you ADDITIONAL stuff to track. You still have those same six numbers on your sheet. Now you just don't have three more derived defense stats.

 

[dkyle]

Seems to me like you guys would prefer to be playing a system that didn't use stats at all. This may be one of the core issues of your dislike.

That's a very strange, and very incorrect, conclusion to draw.

I like ability scores being funneled into a smaller number of easy to remember stats that actually get used frequently in combat. Simplifying the frequent events (attack resolution during combat), even if it adds a little complexity to infrequent events (character creation/leveling) is a good thing.

And you're back to my original point. No one's giving you ADDITIONAL stuff to track. You still have those same six numbers on your sheet. Now you just don't have three more derived defense stats.

4E: Attempt to mentally track AC, Reflex, Fortitude, Will, Attack/Damage bonuses (6 stats), use them frequently each combat. Write ability scores on sheet, reference maybe once a session, if that.

5E: Attempt to mentally track AC, STR, CON, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA, Attack/Damage bonuses (9 stats), use them frequently each combat.

Do you not see the difference? In 4E, I don't "track" the ability scores any more than I "track" each individual skill bonus. They're on the sheet if I need them. I have no real need to remember them during play. Writing stuff on a sheet is easy. The difference between writing down 7 numbers and 10 numbers is trivial. The difference between remembering 6 numbers, and 9 numbers, is more significant.