Something Awful leak.

[dkyle]

You keep acting like this is some kind of new, additional burden being placed upon you. You had six stats and AC from the very beginning. In fact, you originally had five saving throw categories as well.

3E reduced that number - you now had your six stats, your AC (and some variants) and your three saves.

In 4E you had six stats, AC, and three "defenses".

Now you just have six stats and AC.

Why is this somehow adding complexity?

It adds some degree of play-time complexity because there are more things an attack can target. The six ability scores in 3.X and 4E are used to calculate saves/defenses, then can essentially be ignored for routine attacks/spells. It does reduce character creation and leveling complexity, but those are relatively infrequent events compared to being targeted by attacks/spells. Essentially, it simplifies a rare event at the expense of a common event.

Is it a big deal? Probably not. But consider that it's less likely that a player will successfully memorize 7 defenses than 4 (especially if they're also trying to remember their attack and damage bonuses). Fewer lookups on the sheet means faster play.

 

[Savage Wombat]

I have four stats. AC. Ref. Fort. Will. I have one saving throw target number. I left the piles of saving throws in the dust along with Parachute Pants. I don't want that complexity back anymore than I want to have to use a telegraph now that I have the internet.



It's having to track seven numbers instead of four numbers. Increasing my number-tracking burden by 75% doesn't do me any favors. The low stat issue just means that they'll have to add in some bonuses which will make your actual stats useless references anyway.

So you just left your stats off your character sheet as useless relics of the past then? You had 10 numbers (11 if we count the saving throw target), now you have 7. That's less then 10.

If your starting characteristics are not relevant to your game at all, why include them?

 

[Savage Wombat]

It adds some degree of play-time complexity because there are more things an attack can target. The six ability scores in 3.X and 4E are used to calculate saves/defenses, then can essentially be ignored for routine attacks/spells. It does reduce character creation and leveling complexity, but those are relatively infrequent events compared to being targeted by attacks/spells. Essentially, it simplifies a rare event at the expense of a common event.

Is it a big deal? Probably not. But consider that it's less likely that a player will successfully memorize 7 defenses than 4 (especially if they're also trying to remember their attack and damage bonuses). Fewer lookups on the sheet means faster play.

I can easily remember the stats my high-school wizard Theodrik had. I don't remember his saving throws. I don't remember the saving throws of my most current characters. But I know their stats, because those are the base factors from which everything else derives.

I have trouble imagining that hordes of D&D players can instantly recall their Reflex save / defense, but can't quite remember what their Dex is.

Directly targetting stats is a simplication of the system, not additional complexity.

 

[Incenjucar]

So you just left your stats off your character sheet as useless relics of the past then? You had 10 numbers (11 if we count the saving throw target), now you have 7. That's less then 10.

If your starting characteristics are not relevant to your game at all, why include them?

My ability scores matter for the same reason my height and weight do - they inform other mechanical elements in the game, but are not something I need to pay attention to 99% of the time.

 

[Savage Wombat]

My ability scores matter for the same reason my height and weight do - they inform other mechanical elements in the game, but are not something I need to pay attention to 99% of the time.

Which is one of the problems WotC is attempting to fix. Ability scores are one of the cores of D&D, and should make a difference to your play.

 

[Incenjucar]

I can easily remember the stats my high-school wizard Theodrik had. I don't remember his saving throws. I don't remember the saving throws of my most current characters. But I know their stats, because those are the base factors from which everything else derives.

I have trouble imagining that hordes of D&D players can instantly recall their Reflex save / defense, but can't quite remember what their Dex is.

Directly targetting stats is a simplication of the system, not additional complexity.

I can't remember a single characters stats from any game I've played, ever. I can't even remember the levels of any character except the one I'm playing now. Why should anyone feel the need to do so?

 

[Incenjucar]

Which is one of the problems WotC is attempting to fix. Ability scores are one of the cores of D&D, and should make a difference to your play.

To who? I have never heard about anyone caring about stats outside of complaining about dump stats or imbalance between the stats.

This notion of caring about your stats outside of what they do is completely alien to me, as someone who played 2E. Is this some kind of 1E thing that was discarded?

 

[Savage Wombat]

I can't remember a single characters stats from any game I've played, ever. I can't even remember the levels of any character except the one I'm playing now. Why should anyone feel the need to do so?

I'm sorry that you think that's somehow an argument for your position. To me, it's just sad. The characters I've played are a part of my gaming life, and lots of fond memories. My memory of Tormack getting lucky with a magic item and getting a 19 Str is as much a component of his story as the time he was slaughtered by ogres who stole the party's horses. Or that his miniature was wearing green, and had blond hair.

 

[Incenjucar]

My D&D characters have gotten me girlfriends, but I still haven't memorized their stats. That's a very specific kind of relationship to your character that only applies to a distinct minority of people, and really doesn't make for a compelling argument for more numbers to memorize.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Whoops, conversation has moved WAYY past this. Nothing to see here. Move along.