SOMEWHAT OT: Silver Age Sentinels
- Thread starter JeffB
- Start date
Samurai
Adventurer
Yes, I played Hero for 12 years, and I have over 30 4th ed books plus the new 5th ed. IMHO, SAS has all the flexibility of Hero with far less complicated math in character creation, no huge 15d6 die rolls, much faster combat, etc It is the single best supers RPG out there currently, IMHO, and I have played most of them... DC Heroes/MEGs, DC Universe (WEG), MSH, Marvel Saga, Champs, Godlike, etc. I have already made a few rules tweaks, but then, I ALWAYS do that... 
I added the Subplot system from DC Heroes, I tweaked the XP system, I altered the damage % roll to 1d10x10%, etc, but Tri-Stat is very easy to change. The authors even include lots of alternate and optional rules themselves.
I added the Subplot system from DC Heroes, I tweaked the XP system, I altered the damage % roll to 1d10x10%, etc, but Tri-Stat is very easy to change. The authors even include lots of alternate and optional rules themselves.
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Sounds excellent!
Mind explaining some of those tweaks a bit more?I have already made a few rules tweaks, but then, I ALWAYS do that...
Kichwas
Half-breed
A member of my group pulled me out of semi-retirement to look at this thread...
You all know I'm a BESM fan. Or a good number of you do.
I've also been a Champions GM since 1985 when the GM offered to run it one day after critical players to the current scene failed to show for the D&D game...
That's 17 years, for about 14 of which it was the primary system for me (with GURPS as secondary).
Right away with SaS I found myself able to build characters I could never make in Champions. Or more importantly, I can build characters on the standard point allotment that I cannot build on the standard Hero point allotment. SaS seems to allow me to build more comic book like characters.
Look at these threads:
Here's a low powered character who I always struggled with in Hero.
http://pub59.ezboard.com/fguardiansoforder44269frm6.showMessage?topicID=17.topic
Nothing special in this thread other than the last time I tried to make him in Hero (4E) I gave up as he started creeping into the mid 300's range.
But... here's the real reason I'm liking what I'm reading in SaS:
http://pub59.ezboard.com/fguardians...essageRange?topicID=63.topic&start=21&stop=40
--My post is midway down the page.
Fans of Hero may not like what I have to say in there... I still admire the Hero system, it's a great Fantasy or Modern day RPG. But it breaks down at the Super Hero level on the issues I address in that thread.
I've been trying to tell people for a couple years now that BESM could handle supers and that it's powers list was just as complete and flexible if not more so than Heros. I still hold to that claim with SaS. In fact I believe I can strengthen that claim.
This system has me highly motivated to give the supers genre another spin. I highly recommend the tri-stat version to anyone considering Super.
Where I will disagree with many on this board is in d20 adoptations. I simply do no think d20 is an engine capable of handling Supers.
GURPS has one of the best powers engine out there, but it is grafted onto an RPG system fundamentally not suited to the genre. I believe the same issue will result with all of the d20 Supers RPGs. They'll have fans of course; because some people are simply too timid to try anything not D&D based, but I suspect those people will have issues in their games that I and those use engines like tri-stat or Hero will never have to consider.
You all know I'm a BESM fan. Or a good number of you do.
I've also been a Champions GM since 1985 when the GM offered to run it one day after critical players to the current scene failed to show for the D&D game...
That's 17 years, for about 14 of which it was the primary system for me (with GURPS as secondary).
Right away with SaS I found myself able to build characters I could never make in Champions. Or more importantly, I can build characters on the standard point allotment that I cannot build on the standard Hero point allotment. SaS seems to allow me to build more comic book like characters.
Look at these threads:
Here's a low powered character who I always struggled with in Hero.
http://pub59.ezboard.com/fguardiansoforder44269frm6.showMessage?topicID=17.topic
Nothing special in this thread other than the last time I tried to make him in Hero (4E) I gave up as he started creeping into the mid 300's range.
But... here's the real reason I'm liking what I'm reading in SaS:
http://pub59.ezboard.com/fguardians...essageRange?topicID=63.topic&start=21&stop=40
--My post is midway down the page.
Fans of Hero may not like what I have to say in there... I still admire the Hero system, it's a great Fantasy or Modern day RPG. But it breaks down at the Super Hero level on the issues I address in that thread.
I've been trying to tell people for a couple years now that BESM could handle supers and that it's powers list was just as complete and flexible if not more so than Heros. I still hold to that claim with SaS. In fact I believe I can strengthen that claim.
This system has me highly motivated to give the supers genre another spin. I highly recommend the tri-stat version to anyone considering Super.
Where I will disagree with many on this board is in d20 adoptations. I simply do no think d20 is an engine capable of handling Supers.
GURPS has one of the best powers engine out there, but it is grafted onto an RPG system fundamentally not suited to the genre. I believe the same issue will result with all of the d20 Supers RPGs. They'll have fans of course; because some people are simply too timid to try anything not D&D based, but I suspect those people will have issues in their games that I and those use engines like tri-stat or Hero will never have to consider.
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Samurai
Adventurer
Since you asked, I will post my SAS rules changes here... let me know what you think!
Silver Age Sentinels Changes
Damage:
When rolling for damage, use a single 10-sided die. Some d10s are printed with 10, 20, 30, etc for use when rolling percentiles, and if you have one of these, it is ideal. If not, a normal d10 is fine as well, just multiply the result by 10.
The percent rolled on this die is the percentage of maximum damage that you inflicted. Example: If you have an attack with a max damage of 60, and the damage die came up 30% (a 3 if you used a regular d10), you inflicted a base of 18 points of damage (30% of 60). A Critical hit (Attack roll of a natural 2) means that you add 100% to the damage percent rolled, giving a total of 110% - 200% for the base damage.
Next, add the attack roll, instead of the full ACV as stated in the rules, to get the final damage. So if your attack roll was an 11, your final damage is 29 points. This represents the fact that the more wild the attack, the easier it is to dodge but the more damage it may do. A Critical hit by a normal, unarmed person with no base damage value does the full ACV + the attack roll of 2 in damage.
Defending:
A Defense roll must have a Margin of Success that is equal to or higher than the Attack roll MoS in order to dodge or block the attack completely. A Dodge that succeeds, but by a lower MoS than the attacker’s roll may reduce the damage somewhat, but not completely. The attacker rolls 2 dice for the damage and uses the lower percentage.
Example: Jade Naga tries to bite Caliburn. He rolls a 7, and with an ACV of 11, he hits! Caliburn tries to dodge the attack, and he must at least equal Naga’s attack MoS of 4 in order to dodge completely. He rolls a 10, giving him an MoS of 3, not quite enough! Two damage dice are now rolled because he only partially dodged, and they come up 90% and 70%. The lower value, 70%, is used. Since his full damage is 50, his base damage becomes 35, +7 for his attack roll, which comes to 42 damage total. Jade Naga sinks his fangs into Caliburn for 42 points of damage!
Penetrating Attacks:
I feel the 20 point reduction vs 1 defense is not significant enough to warrant its cost. Therefor, buying 1 level of Penetration requires the defender to roll a percentage, the same as an attack power. The defense acts as if it were at the percentage rolled vs this one attack. Each separate attack requires a new roll. Two levels of Penetration means the defender rolls 2 dice and uses the lower percent. Three levels reduce the defense to only 10% of its normal value automatically, no need to roll. Low Penetration works in reverse: 1 level provides 1d10x10% more protection than normal; 2 levels give a bonus of 2d10, keep the higher roll, x10%, and 3 levels automatically doubles any Armor or Force Field the target has.
Special Attacks:
Just to clarify, you must always pay the 4 points/ level cost for the most expensive attack. Each of your other less expensive Special Attacks costs only 1 point/ level.
Damage Difficulty Penalties:
While I like the idea of action penalties for wounds, the amounts suggested in the book seem a bit high. A –4 or –6 is a severe penalty for most characters, so in an effort to balance comic heroism and the pain of wounds, I propose the following chart instead:
100% - 76% = 0
75% - 51% = -1
50% - 26% = -2
25% - 0% = -4
Subplots:
Characters should be encouraged to create subplots for their characters. When a subplot is used during a play session in a significant way (up to the GM what this means) , the character will get a bonus Advancement point for that session. Subplots can include coping with Defects (Skeletons in the closet, Significant Others, etc), the characters job/daily life, power complications, rivalries with another hero, love life, and anything else that makes the character more rounded and interesting.
Advancement Points:
The pace of skill and CP awards seems sporadic and arbitrary. In an effort to give awards each session, as well as reward good play, the GM should award Advancement Points each session. A player gets 1-4 AP each session which may then be traded for CPs or skill points. It takes 10 AP to buy 1 CP, but APs may be traded for skill points on a 1:1 basis. Each session, the GM figures the amount of AP to be awarded and gives that amount to each character:
Player participates in the session actively: +1 AP
Player roleplays his character’s motive, personality, and characteristics/defects well: +1 AP
Player characters defeat the villains and/or succeed in their goals: +1 AP
Bonus: The Player was especially creative, exceptionally funny/witty, they beat insurmountable odds, or the GM feels they deserve a bonus for some other reason: +1 AP
Silver Age Sentinels Changes
Damage:
When rolling for damage, use a single 10-sided die. Some d10s are printed with 10, 20, 30, etc for use when rolling percentiles, and if you have one of these, it is ideal. If not, a normal d10 is fine as well, just multiply the result by 10.
The percent rolled on this die is the percentage of maximum damage that you inflicted. Example: If you have an attack with a max damage of 60, and the damage die came up 30% (a 3 if you used a regular d10), you inflicted a base of 18 points of damage (30% of 60). A Critical hit (Attack roll of a natural 2) means that you add 100% to the damage percent rolled, giving a total of 110% - 200% for the base damage.
Next, add the attack roll, instead of the full ACV as stated in the rules, to get the final damage. So if your attack roll was an 11, your final damage is 29 points. This represents the fact that the more wild the attack, the easier it is to dodge but the more damage it may do. A Critical hit by a normal, unarmed person with no base damage value does the full ACV + the attack roll of 2 in damage.
Defending:
A Defense roll must have a Margin of Success that is equal to or higher than the Attack roll MoS in order to dodge or block the attack completely. A Dodge that succeeds, but by a lower MoS than the attacker’s roll may reduce the damage somewhat, but not completely. The attacker rolls 2 dice for the damage and uses the lower percentage.
Example: Jade Naga tries to bite Caliburn. He rolls a 7, and with an ACV of 11, he hits! Caliburn tries to dodge the attack, and he must at least equal Naga’s attack MoS of 4 in order to dodge completely. He rolls a 10, giving him an MoS of 3, not quite enough! Two damage dice are now rolled because he only partially dodged, and they come up 90% and 70%. The lower value, 70%, is used. Since his full damage is 50, his base damage becomes 35, +7 for his attack roll, which comes to 42 damage total. Jade Naga sinks his fangs into Caliburn for 42 points of damage!
Penetrating Attacks:
I feel the 20 point reduction vs 1 defense is not significant enough to warrant its cost. Therefor, buying 1 level of Penetration requires the defender to roll a percentage, the same as an attack power. The defense acts as if it were at the percentage rolled vs this one attack. Each separate attack requires a new roll. Two levels of Penetration means the defender rolls 2 dice and uses the lower percent. Three levels reduce the defense to only 10% of its normal value automatically, no need to roll. Low Penetration works in reverse: 1 level provides 1d10x10% more protection than normal; 2 levels give a bonus of 2d10, keep the higher roll, x10%, and 3 levels automatically doubles any Armor or Force Field the target has.
Special Attacks:
Just to clarify, you must always pay the 4 points/ level cost for the most expensive attack. Each of your other less expensive Special Attacks costs only 1 point/ level.
Damage Difficulty Penalties:
While I like the idea of action penalties for wounds, the amounts suggested in the book seem a bit high. A –4 or –6 is a severe penalty for most characters, so in an effort to balance comic heroism and the pain of wounds, I propose the following chart instead:
100% - 76% = 0
75% - 51% = -1
50% - 26% = -2
25% - 0% = -4
Subplots:
Characters should be encouraged to create subplots for their characters. When a subplot is used during a play session in a significant way (up to the GM what this means) , the character will get a bonus Advancement point for that session. Subplots can include coping with Defects (Skeletons in the closet, Significant Others, etc), the characters job/daily life, power complications, rivalries with another hero, love life, and anything else that makes the character more rounded and interesting.
Advancement Points:
The pace of skill and CP awards seems sporadic and arbitrary. In an effort to give awards each session, as well as reward good play, the GM should award Advancement Points each session. A player gets 1-4 AP each session which may then be traded for CPs or skill points. It takes 10 AP to buy 1 CP, but APs may be traded for skill points on a 1:1 basis. Each session, the GM figures the amount of AP to be awarded and gives that amount to each character:
Player participates in the session actively: +1 AP
Player roleplays his character’s motive, personality, and characteristics/defects well: +1 AP
Player characters defeat the villains and/or succeed in their goals: +1 AP
Bonus: The Player was especially creative, exceptionally funny/witty, they beat insurmountable odds, or the GM feels they deserve a bonus for some other reason: +1 AP
JeffB
Legend
Not only is the system very flexible like HERO, it’s just a benchmark for how to do ANY RPG core book.
It has a lot of designer’s notes in it (similar to 3E), but I find the designers notes much more interesting, insightful, and often they are filled with options to change the system in whatever direction you like, whether you want added complexity, or simplicity. I would have loved to seen this with 3E. Whenever an option/variant is given in 3E it is always an added complexity, never are solutions for simplifying a game element suggested (unless you consider that they are trying to talk you out of using the more complex variant)
For example, SAS has alternate rules for damage to simplify the system (though it’s hardly complicated as it is), and a simplified optional skill system (breaking skills into broader knowledge groups), There’s also ton’s of combat options. Basically SAS is giving you most if not all the detail you can get with HERO but designed for smoother, faster resolution. If you want complication, the options are there, if you don’t that’s fine too.
The GM section is fantastic…I don’t read comics, haven’t since I was a kid, so the GM section is particularly useful for those who might want to run a Supers game, but aren’t comic aficionados (not to mention there’s a introductory section I the book that gives a fairly detailed history of Comic Books and the CB industry which is quite interesting).
The “Campaign Section” (which is comprised of several chapters really) is probably coolest part of the book. It gives a “history” of supers from a in-game viewpoint. It’s full of newspaper articles and confidential documents from the WWI era, all the way through the modern day. I know C:TNM did this, but in no way is it as well done as SAS, and the SAS documents are much more fun, as well as useful for a GM to read. Then there’s the webpages dedicated to Geography, the detailed breakdown of Empire City (an Alter-ego of NYC), a whole chapter of adventure hooks, stats and backgrounds for Iconic characters etc. There’s a TON of info packed into the book. The graphics in these chapters are just phenomenal as well…entertaining as well as useful.
Back in the early and mid-80’s I ran HERO quite a bit:; whether it was Champs, or Espionage, or Justice Inc. I quit gaming for 15 years, and when I started back up I went right out looking for HERO again. Of course it wasn’t really around, so I purchased C:TNM, which was close in complexity to what I wanted to run, but just did not inspire me or my players; it was poorly written, full of errors, and hard to digest. When HERO 5th was finally released I was overjoyed…until I started reading it….I never could get through a chapter without my head hurting..…It’s a great system, but has become too cumbersome for this old gamer with a family and little free time, to work-up, teach and play. I’m not trying to rag on HERO here, I LOVE the essence of the system, it’s just not feasible for me to run these days.
SAS, gives me the Supers system I’ve been wanting/needing. I’ve been impressed with BESM, Tenchi (which I bought just because I became a fan of the show, though generally Anime annoys me), and the other GOO stuff: it’s fun to read and beautiful to look at, the game engine is simple yet easy to modify if needed/wanted, and ultimately, it just plain works.
Sorry for the Sermon…I just think this is the best RPG to come down the road in a long time, whatever the Genre.
It has a lot of designer’s notes in it (similar to 3E), but I find the designers notes much more interesting, insightful, and often they are filled with options to change the system in whatever direction you like, whether you want added complexity, or simplicity. I would have loved to seen this with 3E. Whenever an option/variant is given in 3E it is always an added complexity, never are solutions for simplifying a game element suggested (unless you consider that they are trying to talk you out of using the more complex variant)
For example, SAS has alternate rules for damage to simplify the system (though it’s hardly complicated as it is), and a simplified optional skill system (breaking skills into broader knowledge groups), There’s also ton’s of combat options. Basically SAS is giving you most if not all the detail you can get with HERO but designed for smoother, faster resolution. If you want complication, the options are there, if you don’t that’s fine too.
The GM section is fantastic…I don’t read comics, haven’t since I was a kid, so the GM section is particularly useful for those who might want to run a Supers game, but aren’t comic aficionados (not to mention there’s a introductory section I the book that gives a fairly detailed history of Comic Books and the CB industry which is quite interesting).
The “Campaign Section” (which is comprised of several chapters really) is probably coolest part of the book. It gives a “history” of supers from a in-game viewpoint. It’s full of newspaper articles and confidential documents from the WWI era, all the way through the modern day. I know C:TNM did this, but in no way is it as well done as SAS, and the SAS documents are much more fun, as well as useful for a GM to read. Then there’s the webpages dedicated to Geography, the detailed breakdown of Empire City (an Alter-ego of NYC), a whole chapter of adventure hooks, stats and backgrounds for Iconic characters etc. There’s a TON of info packed into the book. The graphics in these chapters are just phenomenal as well…entertaining as well as useful.
Back in the early and mid-80’s I ran HERO quite a bit:; whether it was Champs, or Espionage, or Justice Inc. I quit gaming for 15 years, and when I started back up I went right out looking for HERO again. Of course it wasn’t really around, so I purchased C:TNM, which was close in complexity to what I wanted to run, but just did not inspire me or my players; it was poorly written, full of errors, and hard to digest. When HERO 5th was finally released I was overjoyed…until I started reading it….I never could get through a chapter without my head hurting..…It’s a great system, but has become too cumbersome for this old gamer with a family and little free time, to work-up, teach and play. I’m not trying to rag on HERO here, I LOVE the essence of the system, it’s just not feasible for me to run these days.
SAS, gives me the Supers system I’ve been wanting/needing. I’ve been impressed with BESM, Tenchi (which I bought just because I became a fan of the show, though generally Anime annoys me), and the other GOO stuff: it’s fun to read and beautiful to look at, the game engine is simple yet easy to modify if needed/wanted, and ultimately, it just plain works.
Sorry for the Sermon…I just think this is the best RPG to come down the road in a long time, whatever the Genre.
Kichwas
Half-breed
7th Sea.
A disad (you can only have one) costs you 10 of your 100 points.
Everytime it comes up in play you get 1 XP (in a system where the average XP would otherwise be around 3 to 5 per session if I remember right).
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On all of those SaS house rules posted above... too much for my tastes, I'd rather use the system as is.
I prefer the normal way of handling damage, rolling 2d10 and using the chart to find the percentage.
1: the breakdowns are easier on the math.
2: it forces an average of 50%. I like averages.
I prefer the normal rules for defense rolls, where you simply have to make your roll. To disrupt this the attacker makes trick shots. The house rule here makes trick shots a little redundant, if you think about it, this house rule seems to imply that trick shots are always in use, but that the tricking part always succeeds.
Penetrating: 1 point to cut out 20 damage is by no means to expensive in my book. Given that a Force Field costs 4 points per 20 it stops, if anything penetrating is too cheap. I can see why in the larger picture of the system, but it's definately an area of the game I expect min/maxer to focus around.
Special Attacks: You're ruling the same way I would -under normal circumstances-. I like that the rule says that it is your main attack rather than your most expensive attack, as there may be cases were the two are not the same for legitimate rather than min/maxing reasons. The rule as written leaves it as a GM case by case judgement which I like, this lets the GM and player discuss it if the case is unusual without other people feeling that somebody's getting an exception.
Damage Difficulty Penalties: I may or may not use this optional rule. If I do I like the way it is in the book (again). I've been in enough fights to know that getting hurt -really- slows you down a lot. Truth be told, just being that physically active slows most people down a lot. In all my fights, it was a flurry of blows, maybe 20-40 in the first 3 seconds, then anywhere from 30 seconds to a few minutes of rest and positioning, followed by a flurry of blows. The exceptions are the grappled fights, where the time between actions more closely resembled that seen in GURPS, or the gun fights, where everything was rather quick, sudden, and then disengaged combined with GURPS like moments.
Advancement: The rules in the book are rather vague. I appreciate systems to codify it, but I myself will probably stick with the vagueness. It will allow me to advance the PCs in a Theatrix/Everway like manner: Given them XP for specific things when the story calls for those things to advance. This will allow me to have slow and gradual at one point, and then a sudden burst when they go through a comic-book style 'radiation accident' (to steal a phrase from Champions).
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To summarize my post on the Guardians of Order forum for why I think this is the ideal system for supers:
Time to play.
The average Champions combat takes 3 to 4 hours to resolve. Some people claim averages of 1 hour. For me that 3 to 4 only happens when I make the NPCs signifigantly weaker or stronger than the PCs such that it is not a fair fight. Otherwise I get an average of a full session to two full sessions of game time.
The average d20 combat seems to take 30 to 60 minutes. Much improved, but still lengthly.
I've never had a BESM fight take more than 30 minutes. The average was 10 to 15 minutes. The 30 minute case included some extreme roleplay: speaches, posing, costume descriptions, sound effects, and so on.
Anyone know big O math concepts?
tri-stat (BESM/SaS): n
d20: n * log2 n
GURPS: n * log2 n
Hero (non super): n * log2 n
Champions: n^3
where 'n' is the number of 'control points'. A 'control point' being each grouping of combatants that requires individual attention. So a group of thugs that all act together and roll dice together is one control point, a PC is one more control point, an NPC villain is another control point, a street crowd is most likely one more control point unless the GM breaks them down into individuals.
Where they are roughly similar, I've put them in order of which one is slightly faster first.
That's how I percieve them, and why I feel I will like SaS so much. I can't prove the above assumptions until I actually play it. The above assumptions are based on a read of it, and my experience playing other tri-stat games. So you could consider this like somebody judging how well Wheel of Time d20 will play based on their experience with Dungeons and Dragons. You can make a fairly good educated guess, but you can't hold it up to solid scientific proof.
Big O math is a system used in computer algorithm design to judge which solutions will work faster for what conditions. I assume it's used in other industries as well, but that's where I know it from.
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