Mass Reply 2
Ok, as much as I love some of the following Ideas, we have to hold on this style of idea till the “Advanced” class version which will focus on alternate rules and systems such as spell points or a “casting wound point” system, mutable class ability choices with pre-requisites etc, alternate rules systems, etc.
Please keep in mind that the basis here is to create a class that matches the style and simplicity (or genericism) of the core classes. As has been pointed out, the class needs to pass the K.I.S.S. test. THEN we can delve into the advanced Alt.Rules for an advanced build once we have the core set to build from.
- Yes, I think the mixture and level requirements are fine. For the Sorcerer abilities I would like to see a menu of perhaps 10-20 abilities that have level and possibly heredity requirements.
- Perhaps, however, you can allow them to define their own components for each spell with the restriction that each spell must have the same number of components that it would for a wizard, and allow them to come up with their own. In the spirit of HERO, you could add options for C(oncentration) components, SK(ill roll required) components, and others to further individualize the sorcerer's casting style.
- Alternatively, how about losing HP for casting spells too frequently or casting very powerful spells? I'm not exactly sure how this would work, but it would seem that using magic through will alone could tax sorcerers physically as they strain to pull of more powerful or more frequent effects. I imagine how much damage is taken, and whether it is lethal or non-lethal, would depend upon the nature of the campaign.
I personally don't have a problem with sorcerer spells having components. I think components are an important limitation, actually, that helps balance the sorcerer's innate power.
Components as a whole I have conceded are necessary, what I (and a Lot of others) personally feel is that common material components (under 1gp) are not fitting to the sorcerer’s innate style, as the sorcerer IS the material component to the spell. More people than not however seem to think it is better to keep High Material Cost spells on the sorcerer spell list than to remove them. Materials under 1gp of value are nothing more than a “flavor” impact on spellcasting in my opinion.
Yes, I understood this. The vanilla sorcerer, I think, has struck a good balance between versatility and spells per day. Giving them more spells known, even only one per level, gives them too much power relative to the wizard.
All I will say is that you seem to be in the minority on this. Almost every discussion or pass at an Alt.Sorcerer agrees on the need to increase the spells known to a Sorcerer. Having play-tested the Sorcerer a number of times myself, I find that it is far too restrictive and is designed in such a way that it can only serve as a one trick pony for the most part or the player is forced to pick from the same set of highly limited spells that can be used for the most utility they can be squeezed for, which makes most sorcerers carbon copies of one another. In said case, we might as well pair down the spell list to just those spell. As I have said many times, the class needs more versatility to function well. Granting a few extra known spells, most of which are thematic in origin, does not step on the Wizard’s toes. Especially if one wants to bring the concept of spell design into the game. Not only can a Wizard know every Arcane spell from any source that a DM allows, but the Wizards can also craft spells of their own design.
Well, special spell selection should be balanced against the general sorcerer/wizard spell list. So a Celestial sorcerer might gain access to a subset of the clerical list but lose access to an equally potent subset of the wizard list. A Fire sorcerer would gain access to all spells with the Fire descriptor, but lose access to all spells with the Cold and Water descriptors. And so forth.
Losing access to one or more schools should usually be enough to balance adding a potent spell path or especially useful spells from another class's spell list, especially if it prevents them from using scrolls and wands from those schools.
Special Spell selection is a flavor addition and will be balanced both for correct flavor and power level.
Examples so far:
Dragon: May learn any spell with the energy descriptor of their dragon ancestor’s breath weapon type (if that dragon has more than one breath weapon, choose one descriptor). May not learn any spell of the chosen energy descriptor’s opposition energy descriptor.
Celestial: May learn any spell with the Light or Good descriptor as well as any spell from the Good Clerical Domain. May not learn any spell with the Darkness or Evil descriptor.
Fiend: May learn any spell with the Darkness or Evil descriptor as well as any spell from the Evil Clerical Domain. May not learn any spell with the Light or Good descriptor.
Shapeshifter: Unknown
Storm Giant: May learn any spell with the Air or Lightning descriptor as well as any spell from the Air and Weather Clerical Domains. May not learn any spell with the Fire descriptor.
Child of Nature: May learn any spell from the Druid spell list. May not learn any spell that creates or controls undead.
(maybe all of Arcane Necromancy school?)
Child of the Elements: May learn any spell with the elemental or energy descriptor of their ancestor’s element. May not learn any spell of the chosen element and energy descriptor’s opposed alignment or energy descriptor.
Divine Receptacle: May learn any spell from the Cleric Domain spell lists available to the patron deity. Must choose two schools of arcane magic that are banned to the sorcerer.
Sorcerous Family: No special Access but Specialization instead.
The sorcerer chooses a single school of magic known as their specialty school. The sorcerer is most attuned with the spells from that given school. When choosing the specialist school, the sorcerer must also choose opposition schools that are banned to them. If they choose to specialize in Divination they may choose any one other school (excluding Universal). If they choose any other school they must choose any two schools of opposition except Divination and Universal. The benefit of sorcerous specialization is that the sorcerer gain one extra spell known, of their choice, per spell level, from their specialist school only. These nine bonus spells are cast as if the sorcerer were one level higher and they also increase the save DC of all spells used from the Specialty School by +1.
Some ability cha Mod or 3+ mod or whatever is fine... except for the metamagics. I still say allowing them free uses of metamagic that often could be overpowering.
I think with bonus metamagic feats useable n times a day, having metamagic feats not adding to casting time, and assorted other nuances, we're at risk of:
(a) making the sorcerer too complex
(b) making the sorcerer too powerful.
Ok. As I posted earlier there are ways to limit the “abuse”/power factor…
Metamagic Use: Gain one metamagic feat of choice from either: Eschew Materials, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell (only feats with up to a 1 spell level adjustment may be chosen for this ability). This metamagic feat may be used “on-the fly” to effect any lineage spell the sorcerer knows, a number of times per day equal to 3+ the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. This feat is used without prior preparation, increased spell level or extended casting time. The maximum level of spell to which a caster can apply a metamagic feat is equal to the maximum spell level they are capable of casting, minus the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. If the result of this calculation is less than 0, then that metamagic feat cannot be used on any of the sorcerer's spells. A caster can apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell, or even the same metamagic effect more than once (if allowed by the feat's description). However, to determine the maximum level of spell that can be so affected, add together the spell level adjustments given for the various feats. The Heighten Spells feat may be used to increase a spell's effective level (for purpose of save DC's and so on) up to the maximum spell level you are capable of casting. The spell is treated as a spell of that level for purposes of save DC and similar effects, but does not require a higher level spell slot.
This is now a very limited ability. It is only Low Power feats - no Empower, Maximize, or Widen or any of the other over-1-level-adjustment metamagic feats that are floating around out there. It can also only be used on 9 spells at 20th level. Very limited but a nice flavorful addition to improve the “innate” feeling.
As to some of the other arguments:
How is this too complex? How is this more complex than Turning which is so complex it needs a full page of extra rules? Also, keep in mind this is not a free Bonus Metamagic feat. It cannot be used at will as often as desired nor can it be applied to any and all spells.
Making the sorcerer an arcane spellcaster who spontaneously manifests arcane powers by sticking to a particular theme is a sufficient differentiator from wizards.
The problem with this argument is there is no way to do this without writing an individual spell list for every possible sorcerer archetype. The lineage spells are for flavor but by now means making them stick to a theme. A Fire sorcerer may have his 9 fire spells, and may not be able to learn water/cold spells but they may not know a single other fire spell and instead take spells like Fly, MM, Wall of Force, Invisibility, etc. Definitely doesn’t make them “stick” to a particular theme.
Remember, no-one's said the sorcerer sucks as a core class. There is a perception that it's a little weaker than the other core classes. You've already increased its power substantially by:
(a) increasing Hit Dice to d6;
(b) giving light armour proficiency;
(c) increasing skill points to 4 + Int bonus;
(d) increasing the number of class skills;
(e) increasing the number of spells known per level.
The core class needs nothing more. Add anything more, and start taking some of the above away, otherwise you have a class that's not balanced against the other classes.
Actually in the original poll 41% felt the class was outright underpowered, 6% felt it was totally worthless and not even worth keeping and then 11 % others that felt that class was not well written and needed changed but were on the fence for “power/balance”.
increasing Hit Dice to d6 – This is based on the fact that sorcerers are supposed to be better trained in combat than wizards. That directly translates to better HP. This brings them to a median between Wizard (no combat training) and Druid/Cleric both combat trained.
giving light armour proficiency – Poll is still out on this one. But I will again argue that there is more to a Bard than the fact that it can wear armor. ALL classes that have any combat training as part of their design get armor. A Bard’s primary abilities are not even its magic, it is the Bardic Lore and their perform abilities, as well as a hugely spread list of class skills. Wearing armor doesn’t step on any class’s toes.
increasing skill points to 4 + Int bonus – Class specifically states it is a self-taught class. All of the self-taught classes have higher Skill Points. This brings it in line with the next lowest self-taught class, the druid.
As to balance against the other classes, I’ll again post parts of the analysis for those that missed it. (See the previous thread p.3 for the entire analysis.
CLASS SKILLS
Barbarian = 9 skills
Bard = 35 skills
Fighter = 7 skills
Monk = 18 skills
Paladin = 10 skills
Ranger = 19 skills
Rogue = 29 skills
Cleric = 10 skills (plus any domain skills acquired from domain choice)
Druid = 12 skills
Core Sorcerer = 6 skills
Wizard = 15 skills
Alt.Sorcerer = 8 skills (9 with choice of heredity)
Better than the Core Sorcerer which was by far the worst in the system, even to the Fighter. Now it is still at the low end of the class skills – along with the Fighter and Barbarian, and still 8 under the non-sorcerer class average of 16 skills.
CLASS ABILITIES
(Class Abilities {Special column} but counts Spells as a single Class Ability. Counts iterations of an ability as separate abilities where Iterations are such things as stacking Sneak Attacks. Does not count weapon and armor proficiency feats.)
Barbarian = 24 abilities (9 without iterations)
Bard = 15 abilities (12 without iterations)
Fighter = 11 abilities
Monk = 33 abilities (includes AC increase and speed; 25 without iterations)
Paladin = 19 abilities (11 without iterations)
Ranger = 18 abilities
Rogue = 24 abilities (10 without iterations)
Cleric = 5 abilities (including spontaneous swapping)
Druid = 25 abilities (including spontaneous swapping; 17 without iterations)
Core Sorcerer = 2 abilities
Wizard = 7 abilities
Alt.Sorcerer = 10 abilites
The average number of class abilities (not counting the core Sorcerer which is the weakest in class abilities of ALL classes):
The average number of class abilities:
Pure Melee (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue) = 23 abilities (13 w/o iterations)
Hybrid-Caster (Bard, Paladin, Ranger) = 17 abilities (13 w/o iterations)
Pure Casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) = 12 abilities (10 w/o iterations).
The Alt.Sorcerer brings this UP to the average of pure casters (w/o iterations), below average with iterations.
SPELLS
Class………Ave. Maximum Spells Per Day…|…Ave Spells Known…|…Preparation
Cleric………………….5.6/SL…………………….22 / SL……………….Prepared / No Fail
Druid………………….4.7/SL……………………..17 / SL……………….Prepared / No Fail
Core Sorcerer…………6/SL……………………….4 / SL…………………Unprepared / Fail
Wizard………………...4/SL……………………….37 / SL……………….Prepared / Fail
Specialist Wizard……..5/SL………………………..***………………….. Prepared / Fail
*** As Wizard minus restricted School(s) otherwise still unlimited arcana.
Alt.Sorcerer…………6/SL……………………5.9 / SL…………Unprepared / Fail
(updated to include the lineage spells)
Overall, I think the Sorcerer still remains balanced. There is little change in its magic as far as known spells, increasing all of 13 known spells over the core class (and that’s by 20th level), especially when the class still remains on the lower end of the food chain of all of the other class mechanic structures such as skills, skill points, HD, combat, etc.
Each Affinity has five elements: {Snip}
I think I will go with “Lineage” as a working term over Affinity. It has a better ring to it and is technically more grammatically appropriate.
Where does the General Non-Affinity sorcerer fall into this? Simply call it “General Sorcerer” or “Unknown Lineage” or “Mixed Lineage”?
That would make the choices thus: (13 lineage choices)
General Lineage, Dragonic Lineage, Celestial Lineage, Fiendish Lineage, Shifter Lineage, Giant Lineage, Child of Nature Lineage, Child of Air Lineage, Child of Earth Lineage, Child of Fire Lineage, Child of Water Lineage, Divine Receptacle Lineage, Sorcerous Family Lineage.
As for the progression: I believe it would fall to 2, 8, 14 and 20 to keep a balanced spread. I am also not sure if it should be based on spell level 0,1,2,3 or 1,2,3,4? Most classes and races that grant spell-like abilities grant 1st level spell abilities. Also keep in mind that 20th level ability should be an incentive to stay with the class 20 levels. Gaining a 3rd level innate ability at 20th level is mediocre at best.
As for linking the Innate Ability to the Lineage spells: This makes great sense to the thematic ideals, but it eliminates the ability to restrict the innate spells to Personal Only spells. Suggestion? Which is better for the class - the thematic link or the Personal Only restriction?
As for Innate Ability use per day: I think I have to agree that this should be linked to Charisma.
It has been well stated by many people that the Sorcerer’s Charisma does not have enough utility to balance with the other class benefits fro their primary stat. Linking these to Charisma would give the Sorcerer a boon (other than spell use) to their charisma – AND it follows a core mechanic already in place for various other classes. The question is how many. 3+Cha Mod, 1+Cha Mod or just Cha Mod?
The average Sorcerer will have a 16 Charisma (+3) which would grant (in order): 6/day, 4/day or 3/day. This however, penalizes those with lower Charisma sorcerers such as multiclassers. However I would be inclined to vote for:
A number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
However, a “Power” Sorcerer at 20th level could potentially have a 34 Charisma (+12) from an18 Base + 4 Race/Template + 5 level adjustments + 6 Charisma Item + 1 Tome (possibly even higher).
As to…
I considered this, but remember that since the sorcerer receives bonus spell slots from Cha bonus, if the sorcerer chooses to keep the spell as one he knows and hence be able to cast it as a spell-like ability using spell slots, the Cha bonus would be double-counted. That is, the sorcerer would be able to use the spell as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to his Cha bonus + (base slots/day + Cha bonus). Or are you suggesting that, for this purpose, the bonus slots from high Cha aren't factored into the number of slots/day the sorcerer can "trade-in" to cast the affinity spell (in which case there's a bit more maths to do, which I would be against on the KISS principle).
As for the argument of “Double Charisma Bonus” I don’t see much in the way of difference. If a Sorcerer with a 16 Charisma (+3) gains an innate ability that they can use “Charisma Mod.” times per day + any times they could cast the spell normally – what’s the difference from a sorcerer who can cast it 3/day + any times they could cast it normally?
I think the simplest solution would be remove the choice to keep the spell as a “known spell”. This would fall under the “Spell Evolution” idea. If you are limiting the Innate Ability to ONLY the lineage spells, then it is an evolution of the power. The spell becomes an Innate Spell-Like ability and is no longer a known spell. Clean, simple.
Thoughts?
