Flipguarder
First Post
But to counter that Im fairly certain a Sorcerer can get about 30-31 static damage at level 18. hunters quarry would roughly equal the difference.
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Sorcerous Blade Channeling & Acid Orb
- Thread starter Xyrlove Woodsoul
- Start date
DracoSuave
First Post
And neither is the amount of damage I'd want near an OA for a striker.
Defender, yeah, they can have that level, but strikers shouldn't be so overpowering in that regard.
Iron Sky
Procedurally Generated
Against a single target, somewhat. Multiple targets, no. Hunter's quarry is +2d8 on one target, once per round, that +22 static damage is on all targets, all attacks, for his (many) AoE powers.
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Doctor Proctor
First Post
If you want an attack for your Sorcerer that doesn't provoke, then use Burning Spray. The only reason to make the argument that Acid Orb + Sorcerous Blade Channeling = MBA Acid Orb is to use it for OA's. This is completely unbalanced though, and anyone who tries to argue otherwise is lying to themselves.
Imagine, for example, a Hybrid Fighter/Sorcerer (easy to roll up due to STR being a secondary stat for Sorcs) using this power. He could make his OA's, and even his CC attacks, using Acid Orb with a ridiculous static damage modifier. It would easily rival the power of some of the later encounter powers that the Fighter gets that can be used as MBA's and OA's. Heck, it would probably flat out blow them out of the water. For that reason alone, this shouldn't be allowed. It would make Hybrid Defender/Sorcerers some of the best Defenders there are, rather than the combination Defender/Striker (but best at neither) that they're supposed to be.
As for Twin Strike and HBO, as others have pointed out this is more of a problem with Twin Stike than anything else. And saying that Acid Orb MBA is no more overpowered than a Twin Strike OA, which is widely considered to be overpowered, is not really a good argument. Fact is though, there's still a few key differences.
1) Twin Strike requires two attack rolls (which means it's less accurate) and would probably need the Quarry damage added in order to equal the Acid Orb MBA. Since Quarry can only be used once per round, whereas as the Sorcerer damage bonus is for every arcane attack, the Acid Orb MBA is significantly stronger in terms of sustainable damage.
2) Twin Strike HBO requires a specific power choice, a specific feat, a specific weapon and a specific stat allotment. It won't work for say, a dual Rapier wielding Ranger/Rogue. Or a Ranger using Throwing Axes or Throwing Hammers. While these might not be "optimal", they're still viable builds for whom this cheese won't work.
The Sorcerer, on the other hand, only needs a specific feat (Sorcerous Blade Channeling) and a specific implement choice (Daggers). There's no specific stat allotment because you can use either DEX or STR as your secondary stat for damage, and there's no stat requirement for the feat. There's also no specific power choice since both Acid Orb and Dragonfrost both have the "Special: This power can be used as an RBA" line. This makes it easier to achieve for the majority of sorcerers and uses a less strict build requirement.
3) The Twin Strike HBO combo only works for OA's. Nothing else. The Acid Orb (or Dragonfrost) MBA combo would work anywhere that an MBA would. That means OA's, CC attacks, Warlord granted MBA's (such as Commander's Strike), other powers that grant conditional MBA's (Fighter Daily 5 Bedeviling Assault grants a free MBA when an ally hits the target of the power, and as already mentioned a Hybrid Fighter/Sorcerer is very easy to create). In fact, in the case of Bedevilling Assault, it would probably be relative easy to actually outdamage the initial 2[W] with the Acid Orb (or Dragonfrost) MBA!
So, while Twin Strike HBO is definitely a bit cheesy, it's got significant downsides when compared to Acid Orb (or Dragonfrost) MBA. In fact, I would dare to say that this would be probably be THE best MBA in the entire game, bar none*.
*note - I'm saying best in terms of sustainable damage, not single use damage. A single Twin Strike or Rogue attack might be higher damage, but those can't be used as an MBA Standard Action, then as a CC attack and then as an OA (even multiple OA's) of the same damage level in a single round.
Imagine, for example, a Hybrid Fighter/Sorcerer (easy to roll up due to STR being a secondary stat for Sorcs) using this power. He could make his OA's, and even his CC attacks, using Acid Orb with a ridiculous static damage modifier. It would easily rival the power of some of the later encounter powers that the Fighter gets that can be used as MBA's and OA's. Heck, it would probably flat out blow them out of the water. For that reason alone, this shouldn't be allowed. It would make Hybrid Defender/Sorcerers some of the best Defenders there are, rather than the combination Defender/Striker (but best at neither) that they're supposed to be.
As for Twin Strike and HBO, as others have pointed out this is more of a problem with Twin Stike than anything else. And saying that Acid Orb MBA is no more overpowered than a Twin Strike OA, which is widely considered to be overpowered, is not really a good argument. Fact is though, there's still a few key differences.
1) Twin Strike requires two attack rolls (which means it's less accurate) and would probably need the Quarry damage added in order to equal the Acid Orb MBA. Since Quarry can only be used once per round, whereas as the Sorcerer damage bonus is for every arcane attack, the Acid Orb MBA is significantly stronger in terms of sustainable damage.
2) Twin Strike HBO requires a specific power choice, a specific feat, a specific weapon and a specific stat allotment. It won't work for say, a dual Rapier wielding Ranger/Rogue. Or a Ranger using Throwing Axes or Throwing Hammers. While these might not be "optimal", they're still viable builds for whom this cheese won't work.
The Sorcerer, on the other hand, only needs a specific feat (Sorcerous Blade Channeling) and a specific implement choice (Daggers). There's no specific stat allotment because you can use either DEX or STR as your secondary stat for damage, and there's no stat requirement for the feat. There's also no specific power choice since both Acid Orb and Dragonfrost both have the "Special: This power can be used as an RBA" line. This makes it easier to achieve for the majority of sorcerers and uses a less strict build requirement.
3) The Twin Strike HBO combo only works for OA's. Nothing else. The Acid Orb (or Dragonfrost) MBA combo would work anywhere that an MBA would. That means OA's, CC attacks, Warlord granted MBA's (such as Commander's Strike), other powers that grant conditional MBA's (Fighter Daily 5 Bedeviling Assault grants a free MBA when an ally hits the target of the power, and as already mentioned a Hybrid Fighter/Sorcerer is very easy to create). In fact, in the case of Bedevilling Assault, it would probably be relative easy to actually outdamage the initial 2[W] with the Acid Orb (or Dragonfrost) MBA!
So, while Twin Strike HBO is definitely a bit cheesy, it's got significant downsides when compared to Acid Orb (or Dragonfrost) MBA. In fact, I would dare to say that this would be probably be THE best MBA in the entire game, bar none*.
*note - I'm saying best in terms of sustainable damage, not single use damage. A single Twin Strike or Rogue attack might be higher damage, but those can't be used as an MBA Standard Action, then as a CC attack and then as an OA (even multiple OA's) of the same damage level in a single round.
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DracoSuave
First Post
I'd consider it a wash, really, but either way, neither Twin Strike nor a sorcerer's attack should be (without considerable investment or a race that makes it work that way) near the OA line.
Non-provoking Acid Orb at point blank range? Sure, I'm cool with that. OA Acid Orb? No.
