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D&D 5E Speculating about the future of the D&D industry/community in a post-5E world

Gundark

Explorer
Ultimately, I hope that the competition between the two remains friendly between personnel (I don't see this being a problem)

I don't think this will be a big issue either, I've gotten the sense that a lot of them are friends IRL. Paizo has always had forums about discussing D&D 4th and beyond.

OTOH I did see a tweet from a Paizo guy (James Jacobs? Not 100% sure) that linked to a blog where the author stated that the PF beginner box > the 5e starter set.... so yeah there is a degree of competition
 

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Nebulous

Legend
I started wondering about the impact that 5E would have on Pathfinder, and the question arose in my mind: Can the D&D community/industry support two major, vibrant, versions of the game? (By "D&D community/industry" I mean the whole kit-and-kaboodle, including but not limited to all versions of the official game from TSR and WotC, retro-clones, Pathfinder, other d20 knock-offs, etc; anything that is in the "D&D family").

I too have been wondering this ever since i saw the Basic rules and realized that, for me anyway, D&D is BACK in a good way. Really good. Like 1st and 3rd edition kind of good. I agree though, there are so many friggin clone games out now, i do not know what impact the D&D flagship game will have. How can PF compete indefinitely (D&D 3.75 basically) with D&D 5.0?

I can use myself as an anecdote; I plan on buying most 5E products for the foreseeable future, but very possibly won't play for some time because A) my focus is elsewhere - work, family, graduate thesis, novel, etc, and B) my game group is in shambles. I imagine that there are others in my rough demographic - D&D "Boomers", age 35-45ish who started in halcyon days of the early to mid-80s before Gary was ousted and people started getting MADD, and of course before the World of Darkness muddied the waters (just kidding) - people who want to stay in touch with the game, still love it, but can't quite fit it into one's life, or at least only minimally, or there isn't the right context, etc.

So there are numerous ways to address this inquiry - take it how you will.

I am in a similar situation. I will be buying 5e products and 5e 3PP. And more minis. I will buy PF minis to play D&D 5e because i just love minis. I'm in that same age range but my group is in shambles and actually requires me to start a new group from scratch. Which is not happening right away, probably not for months because I have other real life issues to deal with first. That said, this is a game i would love to introduce to new players.
 

Mercurius

Legend
The pie analogy doesn't quite work, because it leaves out the issue of player acquisition - something traditionally done by the leading RPG in the industry. D&D is the only mainstream brand the industry has of its own (no matter what the difference in sales between the leading games are), and WotC is in a position to leverage that to grow the industry in ways that other companies can't, although Paizo has made some inroads into that with its Beginner Box and various branding initiatives like comic books, toys, and so on. So a successful D&D means a bigger RPG industry with more players in it.

Plus, of course, actual competition makes people bring their A-Game. Neither company can coast. This benefits everybody!

I like your optimistic attitude. My concern is that while I agree that WotC can grow the industry, I'm not sure if it will significantly out-pace the natural attrition - at least after the likely bubble of the next two or three years bursts.

All in all though I don't think PF will suffer too badly. I think Paizo will do fine. I do think that the market can handle both.

I think you're right, if they tentatively expect for some degree of decrease in sales. In other words, the bubble of the last few years is probably not sustainable, in my opinion, because of the whimpering death of 4E. So I'm thinking (and hoping) that Paizo realizes that there will likely be some loss of sales, but that they stay the course and keep making strong products. People who don't even play Pathfinder, like myself, will continue to buy because they make good stuff.

But I do think that the "diehard core" 3.xers will keep Pathfinder alive and thriving for some time, just not in the sole captain's seat, or even co-captain's seat.

I am in a similar situation. I will be buying 5e products and 5e 3PP. And more minis. I will buy PF minis to play D&D 5e because i just love minis. I'm in that same age range but my group is in shambles and actually requires me to start a new group from scratch. Which is not happening right away, probably not for months because I have other real life issues to deal with first. That said, this is a game i would love to introduce to new players.

Sounds very similar!
 

DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
While I do think some Pathfinder sales will be cannibalized by D&D, I think they will indeed target/draw different audiences. D&D 5E is a much less rules-intense game, which a lot of people may want after 14 years of D&D 3.X, 4E, and Pathfinder. Some don't, of course.

However, the product release rate of D&D the RPG will likely be significantly less than the pace of Pathfinder. So, the question will be, how much support do you want for your game? If you want a lot, Pathfinder will be the way to go. If you don't want/need a lot, D&D will be the way to go, or, D&D players will *still* buy Pathfinder stuff to convert so as to scratch that "new product" itch.

Frankly, I think both will thrive in the short term. I see D&D's brand expansion as something that will eventually (2+ years down the road, perhaps) lead many people from the PnP RPG to another platform.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
D&D is the only mainstream brand the industry has of its own, and WotC is in a position to leverage that to grow the industry in ways that other companies can't. So a successful D&D means a bigger RPG industry with more players in it.
Very true, but there's nothing new that makes 5e any more of a draw (other than a new box on the shelf, that is - that's something).

The Encounters program is about it as far as trying to /attract/ new players go. And, casual play is a great way to introduce new players. I've seen it first hand, it's only one data-point, but the FLGS where I've alternately run and played encounters has 30 or so regulars, only half a dozen of whom had played D&D before showing up for Encounters. Three of the 5 current DMs started with Encounters, two of them were running games within less than a year of first playing it. And, that doesn't count the folks who started with Encounters, formed into groups and moved on to home campaigns (don't know how long those lasted, but there were several of them).

That sounds all rosy, but, at the same time, the edition-war rift in the existing community meant there were a lot of established players who were only buying from one segment of the industry, and the new players, in turn, weren't much drawn to that segment. So Encounters might have added more gamers without adding much in overall industry sales. Conversely, when d20 made a big splash by going Open-Source, lots of new (and old) companies produced lots of new nominally-compatible games and supplements that were complementary to D&D, so any new players added were potential customers of a lot more product, and, perhaps more importantly, longtime D&D-only players were finally given a path to other products, as well. So it might have been that the OGL helped grow industry sales without necessarily adding a corresponding number of new players. (For that matter, it's hard to blame D&D for not attracting new players in the 90s, when CCGs and LARPs drew off a lot of potential TTRPGers).

So, 5e still has Encounters, and with product on the shelf, there's something to buy. That's good. Really, it's fantastic - that Encounters kept retaining players and staying active in stores even with no new product for those stores for two years bordered on a miracle. The prospect of something new should really kick things up into high gear.

The snag I see is that Encounters looks poised to become less casual play and more Living Campaign style. No more, 'oh your character died, erase 4 surges and we'll see you next week.' Certificates to prove you have magic items. That kinda thing. We'll see how it shakes out, but that may make it a little harder for the program to attract (and more importantly retain) new-to-the-hobby players. OTOH, it might well attract/retain /returning/ players - that vast pool of guys now in their peak earning years who tried, or at least bought (or found under the Christmas tree one year), D&D as kids in the fad years and haven't been seen since.

That is, if there's some peep in the mainstream to remind them of it... for years, a few voices have been saying that WotC should finally do some mainstream advertising, maybe it's time?
 

Nebulous

Legend
While I do think some Pathfinder sales will be cannibalized by D&D, I think they will indeed target/draw different audiences. D&D 5E is a much less rules-intense game, which a lot of people may want after 14 years of D&D 3.X, 4E, and Pathfinder. Some don't, of course.

Here's what i wonder, and i don't imagine anyone has an answer yet, but if the 5e "modules" work the way i think they will, i would expect future releases, particularly from licensed third parties, to release pure crunch books to beef up the 5th edition rules to emulate 3e and 4e more and more. For those that want it.
 

DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
Here's what i wonder, and i don't imagine anyone has an answer yet, but if the 5e "modules" work the way i think they will, i would expect future releases, particularly from licensed third parties, to release pure crunch books to beef up the 5th edition rules to emulate 3e and 4e more and more. For those that want it.

That could be, but if you want the heavier rules, you'd probably just play Pathfinder (or 3E or 4E).
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
However, the product release rate of D&D the RPG will likely be significantly less than the pace of Pathfinder.
Why would that be? Obviously, the lack of supplements post-Essentials was due to resources being diverted to developing 5e (as well as resources just plain being slashed when D&D failed to meet unrealistic revenue goals, of course). Once 5e is in the can, shouldn't WotC be able to churn out new material at a reasonable clip?

And, if 5e isn't saddle with some heinous GSL this time around, WotC won't be the only ones doing so.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Very true, but there's nothing new that makes 5e any more of a draw (other than a new box on the shelf, that is - that's something).

It's not the game. It's the comic books and New York Times and Guardian articles and boardgames and toys and stuff. The game itself is almost irrelevant in that regard - it's the ability to do outreach using a recognizable brand name. The same stuff Paizo is doing.
 


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