Speculation about "the feelz" of D&D 4th Edition

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well I would expect a 20 since I've never seen a Fighter without STR 20. And I'd expect an expertise type feat for another +1. So +10 before stances/powers.

The two 4e 1st level PCs I've made recently were a Dragonborn Warlord who had DEX 10 & +8
to hit (STR 20 +5, +1 feat, +2 prof), and a human Slayer who had max +11 (Str 20 +5, +1 feat, +1 weapon talent, +3 prof, +1 stance). Over the years I've not seen much evidence of PCs starting with 18s - I guess there was a half elf Ranger in 2011 started with 18 DEX.

I would consider 18 the normal starting value. Fighters in particular can usefully exploit various abilities depending on build, so its even reasonable to see a 16 now and then. You'll not too often see a +7 level 1 fighter, but its a reasonable build (+2 for axe, +4 STR, +1 FWT). I think most fighters start at +8, or +9. Really start to get diminishing returns past that and really limit your feat choices a lot. Granted, over time there have been less feats with pre-reqs and more other choices, so maybe nowadays +9 or +10 is the norm? I don't know. I know a hammer dwarf could easily be viable with +7 and a high wis.

 

[Garthanos]

1/level vs less-than-1-HD victims (it's hardly fair to call them opponents at that point), 3/2 at 7th, 2 at 13th, IIRC. Specialization bumped that a step so 3/2 from 1st, 2 @7th, 5/2 @1ths. Ranged weapons used a RoF (2 for bows) as the base instead of 1. TWFing, Weapons of Speed, Haste, ... it could get out of control.

AND DMs had to decide to use those victims as you put without really any examples of how to use them ...the Fighter could have been a bit of a mowing machine at level 9 it might have made him feel like less of a side kick, but well that was never done in higher level modules that I recall.

And Gygax and his buddies figured at high levels everyone would just gravitate to wizards particularly if they actually wanted choices in play...

 

[Tony Vargas]

In all fairness most of this was 2e though, 1e lacks specialization, and TWFing is pretty much not that useful. Multiple attacks definitely is a big boost though. ..

The citing of THAC0 made me assume 2e.
Unearthed Arcana introduced specialization in 1e, though, it might not have been as nasty as the 2e version, and I remember using TWFing to nasty effect even in 1e... I don't recall with clarity how all the various ways of getting multiple attacks stacked. Sometimes they bumped along the progression, sometimes they doubled. Haste, I'm pretty sure doubled, for instance. Hypothetical 2e dart specialist throwing with both hands while hasted... ?

 

[Garthanos]

And Gygax and his buddies figured at high levels everyone would just gravitate to wizards particularly if they actually wanted choices in play...

There was also this "Never name a character till level 5"


4e felt like D&D had FINALLY ditched those legacies completely

 

[Tony Vargas]

There was also this "Never name a character till level 5"


4e felt like D&D had FINALLY ditched those legacies completely

And there we have da feelz:

4e didn't has the feelz of sucking in those same, comfortingly familiar wayz. ;P

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Well, the built-in lore thing less so (though that is true of any edition of D&D, from my reading?), but the rest sounds more like loaded language for "I like the tactical game" which is fine.

I feel like I'm being pranked right now.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

AND DMs had to decide to use those victims as you put without really any examples of how to use them ...the Fighter could have been a bit of a mowing machine at level 9 it might have made him feel like less of a side kick, but well that was never done in higher level modules that I recall.

And Gygax and his buddies figured at high levels everyone would just gravitate to wizards particularly if they actually wanted choices in play...

Well, I never got the impression that rule was anything except a way to hasten combats that were meaningless anyway. I mean, 20 goblins ain't a threat to a 12th level fighter, none at all. I guess there could be corner cases. Certainly it was a useful rule if you were level 1-5 perhaps, where those low level enemies were still a considerable threat in numbers. Beyond that it tended to be a bit silly. If you found yourself totally stripped of equipment or something? That could be interesting!

 

[Parmandur]

I feel like I'm being pranked right now.

Honest, don't see how those aspects you mentioned could relate to anything *but* combat tactics...?

Sent from my BLU LIFE XL using EN World mobile app

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The citing of THAC0 made me assume 2e.
Unearthed Arcana introduced specialization in 1e, though, it might not have been as nasty as the 2e version, and I remember using TWFing to nasty effect even in 1e... I don't recall with clarity how all the various ways of getting multiple attacks stacked. Sometimes they bumped along the progression, sometimes they doubled. Haste, I'm pretty sure doubled, for instance. Hypothetical 2e dart specialist throwing with both hands while hasted... ?

Yeah, I don't remember the UA version very well, it was similar to 2e, but we didn't really use UA, it was rather silly. OA also had some stuff, and it had martial arts, which are WAY overpowered if you use the best options (like you can do multiple d10 damage at level 1 overpowered). 1e PHB says nothing about TWF, the DMG on page 70 has basically the same rule as 2e. Note that there is no 'ranger rule' in 1e. TWF is probably not a bad option if you have a 17 DEX, but note that NO EXTRA ATTACKS PER ROUND ARE GRANTED which leaves open the question of what is exactly intended, do you always get your attack routine with EACH, or do you have to choose, etc. (in the later case TWF has no advantages, in the former its super powerful). 2e clarifies this, splitting attacks between the two IIRC.

In any case, you can't discuss 1e and 2e TWF as one thing, they're similar, and might be the same, but maybe not...

 

[MwaO]

Well I would expect a 20 since I've never seen a Fighter without STR 20. And I'd expect an expertise type feat for another +1. So +10 before stances/powers.

The two 4e 1st level PCs I've made recently were a Dragonborn Warlord who had DEX 10 & +8
to hit (STR 20 +5, +1 feat, +2 prof), and a human Slayer who had max +11 (Str 20 +5, +1 feat, +1 weapon talent, +3 prof, +1 stance). Over the years I've not seen much evidence of PCs starting with 18s - I guess there was a half elf Ranger in 2011 started with 18 DEX.

You'll not too often see a +7 level 1 fighter, but its a reasonable build (+2 for axe, +4 STR, +1 FWT).

That 2nd build is why the 1st build ends up existing...or the closer variation, the Dwarf with Dwarven Training and a 16 Str.

From an optimization standpoint, they're both a little off - one person is following an optimization rule without questioning it(invest in to-hit is a good thing!) and the other potentially isn't following that rule at all. At worst, the 1st is going to be over-invested in to-hit. Nothing too wrong with that. But the 2nd might not be investing in to-hit to make up for the (relatively poor) starting value.

But everyone's seen enough of build #2 to realize that having a +2 proficiency or 16 starting Str often means bad or even really awful at hitting. And instead of going, "Hey, maybe that player doesn't know what they're doing?", they go, "Wow, that build that player is using an axe and keeps missing all the time. Having an axe sucks!"

The real rule is to be able to get where you want to go as fast as you can and then land as many attacks as you can. This means going first. This means having a high to-hit. And it means getting as many to-hit rolls as you can.

As a Fighter, Rain of Blows is an easy way to get 3 attacks. MC'ing Monk for Eternal Tide lets you attack a target and pull another one next to you - who is now slowed and can't shift. Power swapping for Quicksilver Motion lets you free action move at the start of combat. As an Elf, you could free action move, move again, charge for 21 squares of movement, AP for Rain of Blows and the target now can't shift away from you and is marked.

Say that was the BBEG Artillery with a big area attack? 3 main options:
He doesn't do the big attack - attacks you instead
He does do the big attack and provokes an OA and Combat Challenge(for violating the mark)
He tries to move away(OA) which can be stopped by Combat Superiority and has a bonus to hit from Wis, then Combat Challenge again on a hit as he tries to target the group.

See any combats where that might be useful in the context that the Elf starts with an 18 Dex and therefore has +4 Initiative over the 20 Str build? 21 squares is a lot of movement to still have a minor action left...