Spellcaster Prestige Classes: Balanced?

[Apok]

I agree that the spell-storing ability isn't very useful but it should have been since it's more fun/flashy than just some bonus to arcane failure.

Chacal

My one piece of advice is to remove the "target spells only" restriction from the Channel Spell ability and say that you can use any spell through it, but it only affects the opponent struck with the weapon.

Spell Cache, however, is very cool.

Dr. Evil; "Ha! I've got you now, fool! Your spells have run out!"

Spellsword; "Maybe so, but I still have my trusty blade here..."

 

[Spatzimaus]

Loremaster abilities that an Evoker would want:

+1 to attack rolls (for all those ranged touch attacks)
+1 dodge AC (better than the Dodge Feat)
Free Feat (any Feat!)
maybe you take the two "extra spell" Secrets, or the +1 Reflex/Fort/Will, etc.
More skill points, too.

This cost you one general Feat and two bonus metamagic/item Feats. Most Evokers I know would take that in a heartbeat. I'm not saying there aren't even better PrCs for them, I'm just saying that the first caster PrC is a good example of why "+1 to spellcasting class" at every level isn't balanced.

All of these are things a Wizard would want, regardless of specialty. In fact, the +1 to attack rolls is the MOST useful for Evoker (or maybe Conjurer) types; it's practically useless for the Diviners. Ever see someone take Weapon Focus (ray)? I have, and this is better.

And yet again: there is NO DOWNSIDE. I take Empower Spell and Energy Substitution(Sonic) at levels 3 and 5, I get Scribe Scroll for Free... there, I've met almost all of the class requirements by taking things I wanted anyway.

 

[Marshall]

Problem is that version no one in their right mind would take for more than a level. You'd have to have the wrost powergaming skills in the history of creation to take it. The one in the FR book is too good sure, but the original sucked just as bad if not more just on the other side of the balance equation.

Have to disagree with you Shard. Seans Archmage can be significantly better. Taken for levels 18-20 it just gives free High Arcana for no cost. If you add in the ELH, its just as much a no-brainer as the Eldritch Master is.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Loremaster abilities that an Evoker would want:

+1 to attack rolls (for all those ranged touch attacks)
+1 dodge AC (better than the Dodge Feat)
Free Feat (any Feat!)
maybe you take the two "extra spell" Secrets, or the +1 Reflex/Fort/Will, etc.
More skill points, too.

This cost you one general Feat and two bonus metamagic/item Feats. Most Evokers I know would take that in a heartbeat. I'm not saying there aren't even better PrCs for them, I'm just saying that the first caster PrC is a good example of why "+1 to spellcasting class" at every level isn't balanced.

All of these are things a Wizard would want, regardless of specialty. In fact, the +1 to attack rolls is the MOST useful for Evoker (or maybe Conjurer) types; it's practically useless for the Diviners. Ever see someone take Weapon Focus (ray)? I have, and this is better.

And yet again: there is NO DOWNSIDE. I take Empower Spell and Energy Substitution(Sonic) at levels 3 and 5, I get Scribe Scroll for Free... there, I've met almost all of the class requirements by taking things I wanted anyway.

I don't know a single evoker who would take that deal. Even if you take a feat as one of the secrets you are still losing out on 2 feats. And those pathetic little benies in no way come close to 2 feats. I know some diviner types who would take the deal because metamagic feats and spell focus feats eman less to them and it rally fits their style. They still lose two feats which is a heaft cost.

lets look at the lame abilities, +1 to my attack roll oh yeah I get a +1 on top of my crap to hit for a crossow, and a +1 on ranged touch attacks for the what 10 or so spells in the game that use it. If you want this take weapon focus ray at elast that way you only waste one feat.

Extra 1st or 2nd level spell, I won't snear to much at that you might get another MM out of it, which is decent but not worth a feat.

+1 dodge AC, this is actually decent, but as many have pointed out with the doge feat its a weak feat so again not worth it.

+1 to a save, not bad, but its 1/2 a decent feat, and cloaks of resistance costs what bonus sqaured x 500gp. again not worth it.

It gives some decent abilities but at a heafty cost of a cappy pre-req feat, 10 points in 2 knowledge skills which I normally wouldn't spend my valuable skill points, and lets see 2 bonus feats another big blow.

you and I have a vast difference of opinion on what is no downside, 9 times out of 10 I'll take a straight wizard of the loremaster, because I gain more out of it. Flat out the costs of losing 10 levels of wizard and the pre-reqs are worse than the benefits gained. Now this and many other presig classes might be worked to maximum effect by taking a level or two of it reducing the cost, and getting a solid part of the gain. But that's the same for every prestige class magical or not.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Have to disagree with you Shard. Seans Archmage can be significantly better. Taken for levels 18-20 it just gives free High Arcana for no cost. If you add in the ELH, its just as much a no-brainer as the Eldritch Master is.

I'm not sure losing 3 levels of spells is no cost, only 1 9th level spell hurts a lot IMO. And once you get into epic levels anything that gives spellpower is a no brainer, so yeah it becomes a no brainer then just for that ability. That's a problem with EL monsters with insane saves and SR.

Other than spell power though I wouldn't spend a level of wizard on an of the high arcana abilities. Mastery of the elements is cool, but not worth a level, same with shaping, reach etc. And the problem with the spell power is it is only worth it if you go for the whole thing so 3 levels lost.

 

[LokiDR]

Loremaster abilities that an Evoker would want:

+1 to attack rolls (for all those ranged touch attacks)
+1 dodge AC (better than the Dodge Feat)
Free Feat (any Feat!)
maybe you take the two "extra spell" Secrets, or the +1 Reflex/Fort/Will, etc.
More skill points, too.

This cost you one general Feat and two bonus metamagic/item Feats. Most Evokers I know would take that in a heartbeat. I'm not saying there aren't even better PrCs for them, I'm just saying that the first caster PrC is a good example of why "+1 to spellcasting class" at every level isn't balanced.

All of these are things a Wizard would want, regardless of specialty. In fact, the +1 to attack rolls is the MOST useful for Evoker (or maybe Conjurer) types; it's practically useless for the Diviners. Ever see someone take Weapon Focus (ray)? I have, and this is better.

And yet again: there is NO DOWNSIDE. I take Empower Spell and Energy Substitution(Sonic) at levels 3 and 5, I get Scribe Scroll for Free... there, I've met almost all of the class requirements by taking things I wanted anyway.

Most evokers that I know who are really trying to powergame won't go for any of that. They only want higher DCs, better chance to get through SR, bigger/badder spells, and more spellcasting in general. Loremaster only gives one of those, more spells in general.

You make the arguement that it is too easy for wizards, and I agree to a point. But I don't think it is a simple as you make it out to be. Slightly increased pre-reqs should solve your issue in a heartbeat. Just don't allow the wizard to use their scribe scroll feat, and this shifts a lot more away from the evoker.

 

[Chacal]

IMO, Most +1 Spellcasting progression PrC are over powered.
I know it's not a common opinion but I don't think that a PrC should be balanced by using "weak" feats/skills as prerequisites.
IMO, forcing players to take what they would consider "weak" feats is a bad move for a DM.
The class in itself should be balanced. That can be done
by limiting access to some spells, putting a cap on the caster level
for some schools, or whatever you like, but I really am not in the " PrC should be better than standard classes" camp for the following simple reason:
I don't want a player that raise his PC to some level in a standard class to feel cheated because some new PrC he didn't knew about can do whatever he does, but better.


Chacal

 

[LokiDR]

PrC characters should be better....at what they do. If you focus on divination, but are just a basic specialty wizard, you should be overshadowed by a diviner PrC. Of course, you should be able to do something the PrC can't, but that doesn't matter if you are only looking at divining.

 

[Chacal]

Agreed

Of course, you should be able to do something the PrC can't, but that doesn't matter if you are only looking at divining.

That's still an important part, and a DM should give a PC the opportunity to use
what they're good at (by creating a situation in which the standard diviner can be better than the PrC diviner), and sometimes to feel what they lack. So a PrC should have drawbacks that actually come into play.


Chacal

 

[LokiDR]

That's still an important part, and a DM should give a PC the opportunity to use what they're good at (by creating a situation in which the standard diviner can be better than the PrC diviner), and sometimes to feel what they lack. So a PrC should have drawbacks that actually come into play.


Chacal

If you look at this from a rules point of view, you only need to know that the PrC gives something up. Balance is entirely different. A fighter, of almost any stripe, is not balanced with a rogue in a non-combat game. That is a much harder issue than simple rules balance, a prime reason why being a DM isn't an easy job.