D&D 5E Spellcaster/Warrior Imbalances Discussion

[Mephista]

I think this discussion is fundamentally flawed. The divide isn't Warrior versus Caster. It should be Warrior v. Expert v. Caster.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think this discussion is fundamentally flawed. The divide isn't Warrior versus Caster. It should be Warrior v. Expert v. Caster.

Warriors are just experts at fighting.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think this discussion is fundamentally flawed. The divide isn't Warrior versus Caster. It should be Warrior v. Expert v. Caster.

Warriors are just experts at fighting.
If you check out the OP, though, he's using Caster = 9th level spells (so 'full casters') and warrior = everyone else (the majority of whom still cast or use other forms of magic).

And who'd the 'Experts' be? Rogue (warrior by the OP's definition) and Bard (caster by his definition). It's not like there are still experts like the 1e Thief who suck in combat /and/ can't cast spells.

 

[Mephista]

Well, I named "Expert" after the class ability "Expertise." People who specialize in skills more than fighting or magic. My point is really this: The definitions of the OP are flawed, because there's more to this discussion than presented.

Fighter is presented as lacking social / exploration things, when that is kind of true of others as well. Monk and Barbarian and Paladin, despite claims, are all pretty much focused primarily on combat, with very little to show outside it. Sure, Totem offers a bit of exploration, but not Berserker or the dwarf battle rager. Shadowdancer is nice, but the other Monks are all very heavily combat oriented, with only a few token abiilties at high level for other things. Even the paladin spell list is very little variance from combat or healing abiltiies. And healing is pretty much an extension of combat. This is little different than saying that a Fighter can just take non-combat feats for social/exploration abilities.

The "Fighter problem" under discussion isn't unique to the fighter alone. That's the heart of the issue I feel is going on here. Others get "magic" but that magic is just a different flavor than Superiority dice or limited Action Surges. Limiters.

 

[Xeviat]

Well, I named "Expert" after the class ability "Expertise." People who specialize in skills more than fighting or magic. My point is really this: The definitions of the OP are flawed, because there's more to this discussion than presented.

Fighter is presented as lacking social / exploration things, when that is kind of true of others as well. Monk and Barbarian and Paladin, despite claims, are all pretty much focused primarily on combat, with very little to show outside it. Sure, Totem offers a bit of exploration, but not Berserker or the dwarf battle rager. Shadowdancer is nice, but the other Monks are all very heavily combat oriented, with only a few token abiilties at high level for other things. Even the paladin spell list is very little variance from combat or healing abiltiies. And healing is pretty much an extension of combat. This is little different than saying that a Fighter can just take non-combat feats for social/exploration abilities.

The "Fighter problem" under discussion isn't unique to the fighter alone. That's the heart of the issue I feel is going on here. Others get "magic" but that magic is just a different flavor than Superiority dice or limited Action Surges. Limiters.

The paladin has far more elements of its class that contribute to social encounters than the fighter does, even if it's just Divine Sense occasionally spotting that the Duke is possessed by a demon or something. My books aren't with me ATM, but most of the classes except the Fighter have a little something extra. That's all the Fighter really needs. It could be baked into their subclasses really. A few of the new ones so give out something social or exploratory at 3rd. Let's add that to the PHB 3.


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[Mephista]

The paladin has far more elements of its class that contribute to social encounters than the fighter does, even if it's just Divine Sense occasionally spotting that the Duke is possessed by a demon or something. My books aren't with me ATM, but most of the classes except the Fighter have a little something extra.

List them. I'm not kidding. Divine Sense is very restricted in times of use per day, and that's assuming an undead / fiend plot, which doesn't detect magic abilities cast by said people anyways, only the physical presence. Paladins tend to get high Charisma stats, but that's no different than doing the same with the Fighter, who can use Charisma with several skills or class features. As well, Champion Fighter gets exploration bonuses in the form of Athletic check bonuses. And Action Surge can be used in exploration as well as in combat. Two actions a turn can happen outside fights as easily as in it.

I'm sorry, but I think this is more of a case of perception than reality.

 

[FrogReaver]

Well, I named "Expert" after the class ability "Expertise." People who specialize in skills more than fighting or magic. My point is really this: The definitions of the OP are flawed, because there's more to this discussion than presented.

Fighter is presented as lacking social / exploration things, when that is kind of true of others as well. Monk and Barbarian and Paladin, despite claims, are all pretty much focused primarily on combat, with very little to show outside it. Sure, Totem offers a bit of exploration, but not Berserker or the dwarf battle rager. Shadowdancer is nice, but the other Monks are all very heavily combat oriented, with only a few token abiilties at high level for other things. Even the paladin spell list is very little variance from combat or healing abiltiies. And healing is pretty much an extension of combat. This is little different than saying that a Fighter can just take non-combat feats for social/exploration abilities.

The "Fighter problem" under discussion isn't unique to the fighter alone. That's the heart of the issue I feel is going on here. Others get "magic" but that magic is just a different flavor than Superiority dice or limited Action Surges. Limiters.

Barbarians have a few options for out of combat abilities. But not a lot. They get benefits against traps. The totem subclass of barbarian gets a few more useful out of combat abilities as well. Nothing really strong and so he is almost on the same level as the fighter.

Paladins are half casters. They have plenty of semi useful out of combat spells that can be traded for divine smite at anytime. Tack on divine sense and immunity to disease. Not to mention his bonus to saving throws naturally helps him when it comes to traps. You have a character that has many more out of combat boosts than the fighter.

The open hand monk and elemental monk is basically in the fighters boat when it comes to out of combat abilities. However, the shadow monk has amazing exploration abilities. The ability to cast darkvision at level 3 opens up the door to go variant human with very little drawback. This allows you to have a dex and wisdom based character that can cast darkvision, pass without trace and have skulker and observant feats by level 4. At level 6 he gets an ability to teleport (with some restrictions). Basically, you have made one of the best scout characters in the game and it all was able to come together at fairly low levels.

Fighters just don't get anything good for out of combat. Action Surge out of combat is only useful in the most time critical situations. Otherwise there's really no need to take 2 actions in the same turn. My only problem with remarkable athlete is that if I had just chosen to be proficient in the strength and dex exploration type abilities at level 1 then I'm much better off at those things for 6 levels and still better at a number of them at level 7+. The eldritch knight gets almost no out of combat spells either, but they are at least the best out of combat fighter there is. The battleMaster gets nothing out of combat that's useful.

So you are right in some ways that other classes lack on the out of combat abilities but the Fighter is the poster child for this because he lacks out of combat abilities to a far greater degree than the other classes.