D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[ECMO3]

You absolutely can kill someone in a Forcecage with a spell. All you have to do is use the barred cage option. It's only the solid barrier variant that stops spells into the cage.

Then the first part is false - you can't stop any creature that will fit from escaping (nor from attacking you or casting spells at you for that matter).

 

[FrogReaver]

So you would not allow an invisible rogue to do a slight of hand check to lift a component pouch even though it says in the PHB a character (who is not invisible) can use a SOH check to do exactly that?

Where does it explicitly say this? Quote it please

No it is an RAW ruling

Where does it specifically say you can do the thing I described? Quote it please

The PHB says it is a SOH check to lift a purse.

Sure. But it doesn't say this about a component pouch, attached to your belt, mid combat.

He could, except he failed his perception check on that turn. If he keeps the hand there levitating it sure, but that was thee whole point of the SOH check

The perception check was to notice the removal of the pouch from his person. It had nothing to do with noticing the thing floating in front of his face.

Failing a perception check doesn't make one blind to everything that happens on a turn.

Stealth makes less sense to me because of the rules regarding being obscured. As you noted the pouch is floating in air, it is not obscured. Slight of hand skill according to the PHB is lederdemain (not to be confused with the AT ability) or trickery. This fits more with misdirection in terms of what we are doing here.

Stealth is for slipping away without being noticed. Seems like that would be applicable for you or the magehand carried pouch.

I think it is pretty clear what is intended and the example is by any measure far easier to accomplish than things it specifically says you can do with the hand.

I think it's clear you play with some very lenient mage hand rules. It's no wonder you think it's so good.

 

[ECMO3]

The specific scenario we disagreed on was a component pouch attached to a characters belt and trying to take the whole component pouch with AT Mage Hand mid combat.

Unhook it from the belt or whatever and take it yes. That is clearly RAI and if you change this to make it more difficult by putting it in a pocket or a bag it is clearly RAW.

 

[FrogReaver]

The game is balanced for 6-8 encounters per day. If you are only fighting once, you've upset the game balance.

Somewhat, but IMO not to the degree most people imagine

 

[FrogReaver]

Unhook it from the belt or whatever and take it yes. That is clearly RAI and if you change this to make it more difficult by putting it in a pocket or bag it is clearly RAW.

I never said it was 'hooked'. The how of it's attachment was explicitly up to the DM to decide.

 

[Maxperson]

Most DMs would allow him to try to take the pouch, but if they didn't componets would usually be treated like a single object for this purpose, just like ball bearings or caltrops. Reach in grab the components and go.

I doubt that. I mean, if it worked then might mage duels wouldn't be filled with fire and brimstone, but rather two dueling mage hands trying to grab pouches first. I certainly wouldn't let a mage hand grab a huge variety of DIFFERENT objects in one go. Ball bearings and caltrops are at least groupings of the same kind of object.

 

[Maxperson]

Then the first part is false - you can't stop any creature that will fit from escaping (nor from attacking you or casting spells at you for that matter).

The bars are small, so yes, if you've cast force cage with bars on a fly, it will escape. Otherwise you will need to be able to teleport to get out. As for attacking, no, I wouldn't allow someone to attack through a half in space when the bars are invisible, unless they could see invisible objects, and then there would be disadvantage. Casting spells would work, though, but then you'd only lock up a martial enemy in that kind of cage, not a spellcasting one. For example, a Champion or Battle Master would be screwed.

 

[FrogReaver]

Then the first part is false - you can't stop any creature that will fit from escaping (nor from attacking you or casting spells at you for that matter).

If you aren't using the caged option for forcage then you just have to cast sickening radiance first and then cast forcecage the next turn or have the 2nd mage cast it after sickening radiance is cast. It only prevents spells cast into our out of the area - not spell effects that were cast before it was created.

And that's assuming that your DM isn't making lenient rulings such that sickening radiance still affects creatures in the area since it can be cast outside the area and has a radius large enough to envelop the area (and is both light based in name and mechanical effect).

It pretty much defeats most 20x20 size enemies unless they can teleport.
It pretty much defeats alot of 10x10 size enemies even if they can teleport.

It's a scary powerful combo even if it doesn't work on absolutely everything.

***And there's a force wall version that can come online earlier - though it requires 2 casters.

 

[ECMO3]

Where does it explicitly say this? Quote it please

Page 177 top left. "The DM might also call for a Dexterity (Slight of Hand) to determine if you can lift a purse off another's person or slip something out of another person's pocket"

Where does it specifically say you can do the thing I described? Quote it please

PHB page 98: "You can perform one of these tasks without being noticed by a creature if you succeed in a dexterity (Slieght of Hand) check contested by the creatures Wisdom (Perception) check."

Sure. But it doesn't say this about a component pouch, attached to your belt, mid combat.

No but it doesn't say you can't either. Further it says you can steal things more difficult than this and it says you can do it on a bonus action - which generally only applies in combat.

If you could not use it for combat it would say so, as the regular mage hand description says with respect to attacks and they would not bother with a bonus action.

The perception check was to notice the removal of the pouch from his person. It had nothing to do with noticing the thing floating in front of his face.

The pouch has to be removed and that is going to be as easy to see "levitating out of the container"

"Without being noticed" means not noticed. Noticing it "floating in the air" is noticing it and to be clear your earlier if we use this logic wouldn't he see it "levititating out of the container" while it was being taken too?

This of course assumes the item itself does itself not become invisible when taken by an invisible mage hand.

Failing a perception check doesn't make one blind to everything that happens on a turn.

No but failing a perception check against an invisible mage hand lerdemain means he "does not notice" that the mage hand took something .... because that is what the rules say.

Stealth is for slipping away without being noticed. Seems like that would be applicable for you or the magehand carried pouch.

Actually everything mentioned under the stealth skill in the PHB talks about concealing "yourself" or your person, not a thing and SOH talks specifically about "slip something out of another person's pocket"

Now I am not suggesting that I would never use stealth for something like this, but the specific overides the general and the specific rule for MHL is that it uses a SOH check to not be noticed.

 

[ECMO3]

The bars are small, so yes, if you've cast force cage with bars on a fly, it will escape. Otherwise you will need to be able to teleport to get out. As for attacking, no, I wouldn't allow someone to attack through a half in space when the bars are invisible, unless they could see invisible objects, and then there would be disadvantage. Casting spells would work, though, but then you'd only lock up a martial enemy in that kind of cage, not a spellcasting one. For example, a Champion or Battle Master would be screwed.

The bars are 1/2 inch apart, so any of a multitude of tiny creatures would escape as would anything that could make themselves gaseous or incorporeal or small enough to fit through through a spell or ability.