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D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

Should spellcasters be as effective as martial characters in combat?

  • 1. Yes, all classes should be evenly balanced for combat at each level.

    Votes: 11 5.3%
  • 2. Yes, spellcasters should be as effective as martial characters in combat, but in a different way

    Votes: 111 53.9%
  • 3. No, martial characters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 49 23.8%
  • 4. No, spellcasters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 8 3.9%
  • 5. If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?

    Votes: 27 13.1%

  • Total voters
    206
  • Poll closed .

Zubatcarteira

Now you're infected by the Musical Doodle
Worth noting that the first few rounds had heavy winds that gave disadvantage on ranged attacks, and the enemies had pretty high AC, the action surge round was spent shooting at a guy with 25 AC at disadvantage.
 

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TwoSix

Unserious gamer
Paladin was a actually a paladin 9/cleric 6 of peace/redemption (the hippie paladin build). Has a nice aura that adds a d4 to attacks and saves (once a round ) on top of anything else.

Rogue was a thief subclass, no feats to add to damage etc.
I'll be honest, the fact that the rogue just kept pace with the paladin of peace and redemption is not exactly a stirring recommendation for rogue damage.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
I'd like to see expected hit rate versus actual hit rate, also. Rogue looks to have hit on 5 out of 6 attacks (83%), but I don't know if that's boosted by dual-wielding, advantage, etc.
Once you get to high level, ACs aren't that high relative to bonuses. And yes Rogue was dual wielding so gets 2 shots to sneak attack
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
I'll be honest, the fact that the rogue just kept pace with the paladin of peace and redemption is not exactly a stirring recommendation for rogue damage.
1. The rogue isn't that optimized for combat;
2. A redemption paladin hits/smites just as hard as any other paladin and this was one was rocking 3 attacks per round thanks to a scimitar of speed.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
1. The rogue isn't that optimized for combat;
2. A redemption paladin hits/smites just as hard as any other paladin and this was one was rocking 3 attacks per round thanks to a scimitar of speed.
Your really going to have to detail the builds and the enemies they were fighting. All these piecemeal details just cast doubt on the whole scenario.

The Paladin wasnt actually a full Paladin and didn’t even get to improved divine smite is what we just found out. There’s no telling what spells he cast or what level of slots he used to smite with.

the fighter didn’t have precision attack.

the rogue we still don’t know whether he was dual wielding or what.

we don’t know the ac of all the enemies. We know one was 25… (Very high acs greatly benefit the rogue in comparison if he’s dual wielding).

we don’t know how often advantage and disadvantage happened.

so far the numbers posted are interesting but without a lot more context they are essentially meaningless.
 

TwoSix

Unserious gamer
1. The rogue isn't that optimized for combat;
2. A redemption paladin hits/smites just as hard as any other paladin and this was one was rocking 3 attacks per round thanks to a scimitar of speed.
I'm aware of all that, but you gotta admit it's pretty funny.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Your really going to have to detail the builds and the enemies they were fighting. All these piecemeal details just cast doubt on the whole scenario.

The Paladin wasnt actually a full Paladin and didn’t even get to improved divine smite is what we just found out. There’s no telling what spells he cast or what level of slots he used to smite with.

the fighter didn’t have precision attack.

the rogue we still don’t know whether he was dual wielding or what.

we don’t know the ac of all the enemies. We know one was 25… (Very high acs greatly benefit the rogue in comparison if he’s dual wielding).

we don’t know how often advantage and disadvantage happened.

so far the numbers posted are interesting but without a lot more context they are essentially meaningless.

True, context is everything.

But that can also mean over more than one battle - so I think even that level of detail isn't necessarily satisfactory (over 1 or 2 combats).

That said, I've revised my opinion a bit (after looking at the data).

I think a rogue, with sneak attack, can keep up to a good degree. But simply cannot keep up with the 'big" builds like the crossbow-expert sharpshooter (and presumably the melee equivalent great weaponmaster/polearm master). whether that's a flaw or a feature? Not sure yet.
 



TwoSix

Unserious gamer
I think a rogue, with sneak attack, can keep up to a good degree. But simply cannot keep up with the 'big" builds like the crossbow-expert sharpshooter (and presumably the melee equivalent great weaponmaster/polearm master). whether that's a flaw or a feature? Not sure yet.
It's kind of a weird conundrum. Without feats, most of the martial options are tuned pretty well; I don't think there's any standard class/subclass option that's wildly out of whack. But without the scaling that some of the power feats provide, martial classes lose their one big advantage compared to casters.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Also, I think you forgot to count the paladin's smites in round 6, since he dealt 100 damage there.
I saw mention of it, but only saw 48 actually documented? But certainly could have missed it - lots going on!
But yeah, if that's in there. That puts the Paladin solidly over 300 (right up there too) So the rogue lagged behind both. As I said, revised my opinion a bit after looking at the data.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
It's kind of a weird conundrum. Without feats, most of the martial options are tuned pretty well; I don't think there's any standard class/subclass option that's wildly out of whack. But without the scaling that some of the power feats provide, martial classes lose their one big advantage compared to casters.
Yep it’s impressive how balanced melee options are in the phb without feats or multiclassing.
 

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