D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[Steampunkette]

I don't see this as a big problem, becuase when that happens full casters don't have enough turns to use all their slots in combat anyway unless they are low level AND it is a longish battle. There are very few fights that will last long enough. Even a 5th level wizard has 9 slots, so he cares if he has 5 or 9 when the fight is only generally 3 rounds?

Further if you are fighting 1 fight a day with no short rest, 4, 5 or 6 battlemaster maneuvers is still a lot to use in that one fight unless it is unusally long. You can force use them no doubt, where a wizard probably can't actually use all his even if he tries to waste them. But that is not really relevant, because the 7th-level wizard who goes to bed with 5 unused slots left over didn't really do anything more spectacular than the battlemaster who goes to bed with 1 dice.

To be honest I think the 1-encounter a day while traveling dynamic favors the EK and AT more than any other class/subclass. Those classes come to the fight as a full fighter or full Rogue, with all the fighter/Rogue abilities while still having more spells than they are probably going to use anyway. You can add the Paladin and Ranger to that but their spell selection is not as good.

Yeah... That is a strawman. But it's also just so... blatantly small.

That Warlock at level 3 has 2 spell slots per short rest for an average of 6 2nd level spells, more or less, per day. That Battlemaster fighter might have 12d8 he can add on, 1d8 per attack and 1 attack per round, but I was -explicitly not including the use of subclasses 'cause the Warlock gets those, too. On TOP of those 12d8 the fighter can put out, once per round that "Equate" to spellcasting in your eyes.

With the Battlemaster getting a couple of short rests, he can spend 6 dice in 3 rounds across the day (Action Surge) but that still isn't as much as the Warlock can put out.

Meanwhile the warlock also gets telepathy, or temp HP every time they land a killing blow, or the ability to terrify and/or charm the people around them. Or the ability to pick a person once per short rest and crit on a 19-20 with proficiency bonus to their damage. And their Pact Boon. All on top of their spellcasting and their Cantrip doing pretty near to equal damage to the fighter's melee or ranged attack.

 

[ECMO3]

Yea, that sounds more normal.


I still don't see what's allowing you to take the enemies component pouch?

The pouch is usually in a a pocket or belt, (i.e. a container). It is not just floating, either it is in his hand I and I cant take it or it is somewhere else on his person and I can try using SOH.

 

[FrogReaver]

The saving throws also increase.

Moreover because the dice get bigger the manuevers scale better than the low-level wizard spells which must be upcast for more damage. Finally the conditions being set by the maneuver is where most of the maneuvers power is, not in the damage.

For example:
Using maneuvering attack to let a 20th-level wizard disengage from a pit fiend is every bit as big a deal as letting a 3rd level wizard disengage from a wight.

Using menacing attack to frighten a 20-th level pit fiend is as big a deal at 20th level as using it to frighten a wight at 3rd level

If you have a Rogue in the party, distracting strike is as powerful against a pit fiend at 20th level as it is against a wight at 3rd and if you have a monk in the party it is more powerful.

Moreover in addition to causing these conditions you are also doing substantial damage with your attacks (not counting the superiority dice) and at 20th level you are getting 4 of them. So these things, which all do scale, are a smaller part of your turn than at 3rd level. Using the two examples above - a 3rd level fighter with a longsword will do 12 damage from his weapon plus the maneuver affect. So it sets the condition and takes out slightly less than a 25% of the wights hps. At 20th level his attacks, if he spends a dice on each will do 64, over 20% of the pit fiends hit points and set 4 of the conditions for the maneuvers. That is a pretty basic build, adding feats and combining with a fighting style or bonus action attacks will make for more damage and more attacks.

I mean sure, there's a few manuevers that scale fine no matter the level. Most don't. Of the warlordy ones, manuevering is it. Commanders Strike can provided there's a rogue in the party. Rally doesn't scale well by level at all. Manuevers that grant an ally advantage on a single attack don't scale well.

 

[FrogReaver]

The pouch is usually in a a pocket or belt, (i.e. a container). It is not just floating, either it is in his hand I and I cant take it or it is somewhere else on his person and I can try using SOH.

Yea it's that ruling that is unusually lenient. In my games the component pouch would be attached to the belt for easy access. It would be 'the container' and wouldn't be in a container itself and so couldn't be grabbed per the additional rules. It would be attached to the caster so couldn't just be taken away via normal mage hand rules either. At the minimum there would be a check there and that really depends on how it's envisioned being tied on. I mean I suppose if some mage did keep his component pouch in a pocket, I would allow it to be taken from that pocket - but that's a big if.

 

[Steampunkette]

A forcecage blocks any spells cast into it

It also shuts down any martial character who gets trapped in it.

And Banishment likewise renders them useless.

And Hold Person makes every hit on them a Crit.

A Wall of Force stops them in their tracks.

A Wall of ICE or STONE stops them until they can bash their way through it.

Imprisonment targets their Wisdom Save and buries them in the Earth (Among other Options) indefinitely with no follow up saves.

Hedge cases can be thought up to completely screw over any character class.

What's your point?

 

[ECMO3]

Yeah... That is a strawman. But it's also just so... blatantly small.

With the Battlemaster getting a couple of short rests, he can spend 6 dice in 3 rounds across the day (Action Surge) but that still isn't as much as the Warlock can put out.

Meanwhile the warlock also gets telepathy, or temp HP every time they land a killing blow, or the ability to terrify and/or charm the people around them. And their Pact Boon. All on top of their spellcasting and their Cantrip doing pretty near to equal damage to the fighter's melee or ranged attack.

This whole thread is a strawman and your math is wrong.

If you are only fighting once a day using 6 dice is using two dice on every single one of his turns. Actually that is more than two dice on every one of his turns, since most fights last three rounds or less.

I don't know what level we are talking about here and I am not sure if you are talking about a campaign with no short rests or one with 2 short rests but your math is wrong regardless.

Bottom line is a 3rd level battlemaster at level 4 gets 4 dice every time he lays down, 5 at7th level, 6 at 15th level plus 1 every time he rolls initiative with none remaining. At every level 3rd and above he will ALWAYS have more dice after a rest than a warlock has spells slots and some of those dice include the ability to frighten people as well as abilities to do a wide variety of other things.

The battlemaster also has indmoitable, 2nd wind (which is real hp not temp), and one or more action surges per short rest. Finally he gets 2 more ASIs and they can be used for anything available in the feat list, including some warlock invocations. He also gets the ability with know your enemy and a tool in addition to attacking 2, 3 or 4 times a turn.

It is like you want to bring everything another class can do and ignore what the fighter or battlemaster uniquely brings to the table.

 

[Undrave]

Then nothing is interesting. If illusions, charms, and other tricks arent interesting enough for you, you should try being a friggin fighter who gets to hit stuff and... hit stuff slightly more.

Yet here you sit, telling those who want a decent martial class that we're being unreasonable for not accepting the garbage scraps the caster players are willing to toss our way. "Fine, you can have an extra half your proficiency bonus to jumping, but anything more and my precious v-tude will need the fainting couch!"

"Remarkable Athlete" my butt... the worse part of that terrible feature is that it's BEST application is being a bonus to your Initiative rolls, making it a COMBAT bonus.

Sure. I think there's a reason anti-magic zones exist and not anti-martial zones.

You could probably create an Anti-Martial Zone with a really big magnet... Proving that Monks are just filthy casters pretending to be martials

If all it takes to count for all day every day is a fighting style then make a leadery fighting style and be done. Now you can be a warlord all day every day.

I think the designers also count d10 hit dice(and d12 for Barbarian) and Heavy Armor proficiency as a 'thing' Fighter and Paladin get. They're class features being balanced against other benefits other classes get. It's honestly pretty bland for those two until much later. I was stretching with that Fighting Style mention honestly. Now, the Champion... the Champion can crit on 19-20 all day so he's always a champion, even when he's not critting.

I mean sure, there's a few manuevers that scale fine no matter the level. Most don't. Of the warlordy ones, manuevering is it. Commanders Strike can provided there's a rogue in the party. Rally doesn't scale well by level at all. Manuevers that grant an ally advantage on a single attack don't scale well.

Working on my own Warlord made me appreciate the simplicity of 4e where even Martials scaled like 5e Cantrips instead of just adding singular attacks. Made boosting a single attack far more scalable...Of course, people used to the 3e paradigm that a Fighter is just 'a guy who attacks more often and gets more feat' didn't like the lack of extra attacks...

The idea of a 'basic attack' (ranged or melee) was also very useful, since you had stuff like Eldtrich Blast and other At-Will magical attacks that could be considered 'basic attacks'. It meant you could grant basic attacks and be confident most party member would have at least 1 option that wasn't terrible. You can't just grab a 4e Warlord power and make it a 5e class feature or non-magical spell or whatever. You have to translate what fiction its trying to realize and find the best way to apply it. I actually barely looked at my 4e books when working on my Warlord just to avoid the lure of the transpostion. I worked on theme and feel rather than exact mechanic. I did checked out the Paragon Paths to steal names for subclasses It's how I got the Borderlands Marshall (it was a Paragon Path for either Warlord or Ranger!). I think it's also why the Charisma Warlord is way easier to work into 5e... but Charisma is already such a common stat I really want to work on the INT aspect too!

There's way too many D&D Party where the whole lot of them have about 3 brain cell to share amongst them when ta Wizard isn't around.

 

[ECMO3]

It also shuts down any martial character who gets trapped in it.

And Banishment likewise renders them useless.

And Hold Person makes every hit on them a Crit.

A Wall of Force stops them in their tracks.

A Wall of ICE or STONE stops them until they can bash their way through it.

Imprisonment targets their Wisdom Save and buries them in the Earth (Among other Options) indefinitely with no follow up saves.

Hedge cases can be thought up to completely screw over any character class.

What's your point?

My point was you can't kill the person inside the forcecage with a spell as was stated.

I am not saying it is not powerful, it is and unlike many of the things you listed above grants no save makeing it even more powerful.

 

[FrogReaver]

This whole thread is a strawman and your math is wrong.

If you are only fighting once a day using 6 dice is using two dice on every single one of his turns. Actually that is more than two dice on every one of his turns, since most fights last three rounds or less.

If you are fighting once a day the encounter will be significantly longer than 3 rounds.

 

[FrogReaver]

You could probably create an Anti-Martial Zone with a really big magnet... Proving that Monks are just filthy casters pretending to be martials

YES!!! Best trap idea ever. Giant Electromagnet. Props for the idea. I will be using this sometime in the future.

I think the designers also count d10 hit dice(and d12 for Barbarian) and Heavy Armor proficiency as a 'thing' Fighter and Paladin get. They're class features being balanced against other benefits other classes get. It's honestly pretty bland for those two until much later. I was stretching with that Fighting Style mention honestly. Now, the Champion... the Champion can crit on 19-20 all day so he's always a champion, even when he's not critting.

Agree

Working on my own Warlord made me appreciate the simplicity of 4e where even Martials scaled like 5e Cantrips instead of just adding singular attacks. Made boosting a single attack far more scalable...Of course, people used to the 3e paradigm that a Fighter is just 'a guy who attacks more often and gets more feat' didn't like the lack of extra attacks...

Yea. There's something to be said about 4e design being simple in certain ways. I think if you had gotten 2 actions in 4e at some point (maybe level 11+) it would have felt better.

The idea of a 'basic attack' (ranged or melee) was also very useful, since you had stuff like Eldtrich Blast and other At-Will magical attacks that could be considered 'basic attacks'. It meant you could grant basic attacks and be confident most party member would have at least 1 option that wasn't terrible. You can't just grab a 4e Warlord power and make it a 5e class feature or non-magical spell or whatever. You have to translate what fiction its trying to realize and find the best way to apply it. I actually barely looked at my 4e books when working on my Warlord just to avoid the lure of the transpostion. I worked on theme and feel rather than exact mechanic.

At some point I'll look at and give you my opinion of your Warlord.

I did checked out the Paragon Paths to steal names for subclasses It's how I got the Borderlands Marshall (it was a Paragon Path for either Warlord or Ranger!). I think it's also why the Charisma Warlord is way easier to work into 5e... but Charisma is already such a common stat I really want to work on the INT aspect too!

There's way too many D&D Party where the whole lot of them have about 3 brain cell to share amongst them when ta Wizard isn't around.

Typically, I don't like strong focus on secondary stats. I'd rather see scaling via proficiency bonus or something like that. But a few abilities that sprinkle it in are probably okay.