Spiked chain question

[Nazhkandrias]

OK, first things first, let's NOT make this a "Is A Spiked Chain Cheesy?" thread. Just want to prevent the seven-page discussion that's happened 20 times before.

Now, the skinny on the Chizzle to the Spizzle...

First off, why do people pick it? Easily answered, in no particular order...

1. Lame munchkins who want the "uberbuild", as seen in the Half-Ogre Spiked Chain Fighter in OotS. They see "Trip" and "10-ft. Reach", they think Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip, then they think that grants them invincibility. I'll cover this later.
2. Flexibility! That 10' reach can be really helpful, and not having to take a 5' step every round or invest in Spring Attack, as per polearms, is pretty cool. In addition, tripping (psychadelic sounds) is always a nice option, plus the disarm bonus to cater to Improved Disarm builds.
3. Weapon Finesse. Dex-based classes (like the Ranger, if they use an alternative Weapon Style - or the Rogue, for that matter) can benefit from it, too, although despite having the Finesse quality, it isn't a great choice - two of the three main advantages to the chain are the trip and disarm properties, both dependent on Strength - this means that a Dex-build will miss out on most of the weapon's goodness.
4. Depending on how you view it (and how seriously you consider a fantasy RPG to be realistic), it's either cool as hell or ridiculous. Both good reasons to get it.

Next, why do some DMs hate it, or disallow it completely? Here's the lowdown...

1. It is easily abusable, on the PLAYER'S part. Yes, they can Trip everything within reach with Whirlwind Attack, and yes, against a bunch of humanoid enemies, this would get ridiculously powerful on a high-Str fighter. In addition, Combat Reflexes + Reach + Trip is annoying, too. But, this has never been a problem in my games, which I will cover now...
2. They don't see the obvious way to balance things out. Simply throw in some Yuan-Ti Abominations or similar un-trippable / hard-to-trip enemies (drow mounted on spiders), and suddenly, our spiked chain munchkin is absolutely gimped. So many feats go into one tactic that they become hyper-specialized, and could easily lose the upper hand.
3. They don't see it as a realistic weapon. Who gives a hobo's crap? D&D is fantasy, where scythes are viable weapons and you can survive a 10,000 foot drop with a little luck.

Finally, why I encourage people to lift the taboo on this neat little weapon and use it...

1. It's a unique, flavorful weapon that you can get really creative in describing (coup de grace - pick up enemy by neck, wrap chain around neck, pull hard, SNAP), and it has a lot of cool options available for it.
2. It's only cheesy if the DM is unwilling to deal with the problem in a logical manner - if the players get too powerful with one method, give 'em a monster who it doesn't work on - typically, it will scare the players into diversifying their tactics a bit.
3. It's a freakin' chain. Can somebody say "Ghost Rider" (+2 Unholy Flaming Spiked Chain)?

Anyway, hope this gave you a little insight. Don't abuse this weapon, and don't execute the same maneuver over and over. This is such a diverse weapon, it seems a shame to use it in such a dry and colorless way.

 

[Elethiomel]

two of the three main advantages to the chain are the trip and disarm properties, both dependent on Strength - this means that a Dex-build will miss out on most of the weapon's goodness.

Disarm is an opposed attack roll. Someone with Weapon Finesse and a high DEX has just as good a chance to disarm someone as someone with as high a STR and the same base attack bonus.

 

[Nazhkandrias]

Disarm is an opposed attack roll. Someone with Weapon Finesse and a high DEX has just as good a chance to disarm someone as someone with as high a STR and the same base attack bonus.

Ah, I forgot about that - I don't disarm very often, since I believe that trip is inherently more useful (except in certain circumstances - taking that vorpal sword off of an archvillain is a lifesaver). Well, then, go for Dex-based chain wielders!

 

[Whimsical]

As a DM, I like making the spiked chain the cultural weapon of the opposing force. Every mook of culture X has one.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Not quite in practice. We have a character who uses one in Shilsen's campaign and while he has been effective, it's not a "You just win.".

I was exaggerating quite a bit, but my point still stands. True, there's times when you simply can't trip, but then again, there's times when you simply can't cast spells and when you simply can't hit something's AC. But those times aren't always, and when you're not in one of those situations, you seriously screw up whoever you're fighting. Any medium-sized bipedal creature is toast against a high-strength Fighter with a Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, and the Tripping enchantment on his weapon. The Disarming enchantment is even better, and continues to stay amazing as you level (it eliminates any of the opponent's bonuses for being larger, wielding a two-handed weapon, so on).

True, sometimes the BBEG is a Fiendish Half-Golem Behir that's completely impossible to trip and doesn't have a weapon you can disarm, but then again, sometimes (possibly more commonly) the BBEG is a medium-sized bipedal creature with a big nasty two-handed weapon.

It's a nice weapon, is all. Maybe I was exaggerating a bit too much, but the core of my point still stands.

 

[Rackhir]

I was exaggerating quite a bit, but my point still stands. True, there's times when you simply can't trip, but then again, there's times when you simply can't cast spells and when you simply can't hit something's AC. But those times aren't always, and when you're not in one of those situations, you seriously screw up whoever you're fighting. Any medium-sized bipedal creature is toast against a high-strength Fighter with a Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, and the Tripping enchantment on his weapon. The Disarming enchantment is even better, and continues to stay amazing as you level (it eliminates any of the opponent's bonuses for being larger, wielding a two-handed weapon, so on).

True, sometimes the BBEG is a Fiendish Half-Golem Behir that's completely impossible to trip and doesn't have a weapon you can disarm, but then again, sometimes (possibly more commonly) the BBEG is a medium-sized bipedal creature with a big nasty two-handed weapon.

It's a nice weapon, is all. Maybe I was exaggerating a bit too much, but the core of my point still stands.

The "core" of your point was that it is an invincible uber weapon that grants automatic victory. Which is simply not the case and has been completely debunked.

It's a nice weapon, it's an effective one. However it takes a substantial number of feats and a moderately high level character to be able to use properly and even more to use the way you describe it. Plus a large number of magical buffs. Any character who spends that number of feats and the amount of resources it takes to be able to use a weapon in the manner you describe, OUGHT to be effective with it or what's the point? Besides anytime you get to dictate the terms of combat to the extent you describe, things are inherently going to stacked in your favor.

You also seem to think that if you trip someone, it's an instant death condition. You can spell cast and even fight just fine from a prone position. People just get some bonuses to hit you with melee weapons, but some penalties if they're using a missile weapon. You draw an AoO if you attempt to stand up, but if you have a BBEG surrounded and alone like you seem to think is always going to be the case, then the BBEG is going to die no matter what.

In short your argument seems to be "If I get to stack the deck so everything is in my favor. Then this proves that the spiked chain is unbalanced." While ignoring the fact that what's unbalancing things is the fact that you've stacked the deck.

Over two years of experience observing one in actual use over a wide range of situations has proven to my satisfaction, that spiked chain is hardly over powered, instant death or nearly as lethal as you believe it to be.

 

[Zelc]

Also, if you instead use a Guisarme + Spiked Gauntlet or Armor Spikes, you save a feat and you're almost as effective as a Spiked Chain fighter until higher levels (where a fighter really needs some help anyway).

 

[Kat']

Ah, I forgot about that - I don't disarm very often, since I believe that trip is inherently more useful

It is. Trip works on nearly any corporeal being except oozes. Disarm works only on armed opponents, meaning dragons, magical beasts, plants, animals, elementals, vermins, constructs, a good amount of aberrations, undead and outsiders, decent casters/manifesters, and monks, are not affected. That's a bit too much exceptions for my taste.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I was exaggerating quite a bit, but my point still stands. True, there's times when you simply can't trip, but then again, there's times when you simply can't cast spells and when you simply can't hit something's AC. But those times aren't always, and when you're not in one of those situations, you seriously screw up whoever you're fighting. Any medium-sized bipedal creature is toast against a high-strength Fighter with a Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, and the Tripping enchantment on his weapon. The Disarming enchantment is even better, and continues to stay amazing as you level (it eliminates any of the opponent's bonuses for being larger, wielding a two-handed weapon, so on).

You used a lot of unecessary words and left out some crucial ones. Any medium-sized bipedal creature of level-appropriate challenge rating and within melee range is toast against a high strength fighter. Period.

The half-orc barbarian in my Pathfinder game is using a spiked chain. It's not really an optimized choice, as a barbarian doesn't have the feats to really take advantage of the weapon, but it's proving decent in practice. The extra reach is useful.

 

[Elethiomel]

It is. Trip works on nearly any corporeal being except oozes. Disarm works only on armed opponents, meaning dragons, magical beasts, plants, animals, elementals, vermins, constructs, a good amount of aberrations, undead and outsiders, decent casters/manifesters, and monks, are not affected. That's a bit too much exceptions for my taste.

The two in combination is even better, since prone opponents have a -4 penalty to melee attack rolls.