Spiked Chain Rethink

[Evilhalfling]

"The spiked chain. is a game killer ....
The chain had a perfect storm of changes that all made it better - Power Attack 2/1 damage, the change to Improved Disarm, the change to Improved Trip, and the new rules for reach for Large and bigger creatures all make it too good. "
mearls

So a spike chain wielder needs 4 feets to operate at full power - exotic weapon, combat reflexes, expertise and improved trip.

Two chain specialists have played in my campain both fully tweaked.
If this weapon was so much better than anything else for controling the battlefield why was it never usedi in reality? I have seen some oriental weapons that were similar but nothing that really matches it. It seems to have been invented by Spawn, leading to Krytons and then to the Core Books
Bleh.
I was thinking of a weapon that could make attacks 10 ft but only threated a 5' range. This is still better than better than many martial weapons but is it still worth a exotic feat?

Do others loath this munkiny weapon? Or can anyone defend it's existance?

 

[Hammerhead]

Damage sucks compared to the martial greatsword. Everything but tripping is over-rated. I think there's some Asian-type weapon called the kusi-garma that's chain based.

I have no problems with the weapon in my games.

 

[FireLance]

Improved Trip and Improved Disarm require either 13 Intelligence or monk levels. In a point-buy game, there is an opportunity cost to increasing Intelligence. They are most useful against creatures your size or smaller. Their usefulness drops quickly the larger your opponents get.

A heavy flail has the same advantages to Power Attack, disarm and trip, deals more damage on average and has a better threat range. Spending a feat to gain the ability to attack at 10 ft. and 5 ft. seems OK to me.

 

[mearls]

The more levels you gain, the less your damage die matters. By 5th level, you either have a 2 handed weapon and you're dealing tons of damage, or you don't.

The disarm thing is huge. You can basically take any enemy NPC who has a weapon out of the game.

Tripping v. larger creatures - a non-issue with the +4 bonus to trip attacks from Improved Trip and the enlarge person spell.

All of these also synergize incredibly well with buff spells. Anything that boosts your Strength makes all of these actions easier to complete.

The key to the chain, IME, is that you have to use a 28 point max point buy to keep it in check. That keeps the Int 13 requirement for Expertise in check. Otherwise, you have to plan every encounter around the chain. It's far too binary - either the chain is in play and everything changes, or it isn't. I haven't seen a similar shift with any other class or ability in the game.

IME, it takes groups a while to clue in to the chain's effectiveness. Since it's nothing like an iconic weapon, it takes a while for players to pick up on it.

The key is the reach - the spiked chain fighter's best option is to hold an action to attack an opponent who comes within reach, and then trip him. Once the target's down, the fight is pretty much over. The new rules for reach at larger sizes make it far worse - a spiked chain fighter with enlarge person can pretty much reach anyone on the typical D&D battlefield.

The key, to me, is that unless you cheese out as a DM and just design everything to nullify the chain, it's hard to make battles that are challenging to the chain fighter without making it too tough for everyone else. Oddly enough, this problem is much worse at low levels than high ones. Once you can give the bad guys Spring Attack, things get a lot easier.

 

[Darklone]

Sunder the chain.

 

[Salhan]

I think that "attack to 10 feet, threaten to 5 feet" is exactly what a spiked chain was supposed to be, although this admittedly looks weird ruleswise. This way, the character is still able to use the chain from 2nd row and allows him to avoid some AoOs.

 

[FireLance]

Again, I don't see it as a spiked chain problem.

Heavy flail + Improved Trip + enlarge person is about the same as a spiked chain, but does not have reach.

Guisarme + Improved Trip + enlarge person has reach but cannot attack up close.

The advantage to the spiked chain is that you can use it up close and at reach at the same time, and that costs a feat.

 

[Tetsubo]

My argument against the spiked chain is reality based. Yes, I know this is a game. But it is based in our reality. It has physics. It has humans. And in ten thousand years of organized combat no culture ever invented the spike chain. There are chain weapons of course. The rante, manriki-gusari and a number of weapon/chain combos. But none of them is laced with spikey metal bits down its length. The spike chain is just silly. Right up there is the dire flail and the mercurial weapons. Just let the players have access to a weighted chain. It is realistic, works and isn't silly.

 

[VirgilCaine]

"The spiked chain. is a game killer ....

Do others loath this munkiny weapon? Or can anyone defend it's existance?

I just can't see how it's used. Doesn't make sense to me. Kytons, okay, those are demons. But how do you not hit your allies?

So I don't allow it in my games.

 

[reanjr]

Sunder the chain.

Does anyone else think you should be able to sunder a reach weapon from 10 ft. away?