Spiked Chain: The Ultimate Defenders Wep or Sir Not Appearing in the Edition?

[Glyfair]

The problem is the "threaten at a distance". If the chain worked like a whip, where you can make attacks farther out, but it does not increase your threatened area, it would be much saner.

It's clearly based on the martial arts weapons you see in the movies. Those weapons are equally effective at close range and their extreme range in the movies (whether they'd work that way IRL is irrelevant because that's not what they are simulating). Whips don't do that (even in the movies).

The trick, however, is that it works that way because of the training of the user. Based on the bits and pieces we've heard, I believe it is quite likely that a spiked chain would work that way in 4E. Maybe it would have a default ranged attack like the whip, but have more functions based on weapon feats/talents/techniques the individual character chooses (such as the ability to attack a close range, ala the Dragon articles on pole arms not long ago).

 

[kennew142]

Historically there were a number of japanese chain weapons (manriki-gusari, kusari-gama etc). I'm guessing that they took more specific training to use well, but did have their uses.



The problem comes from its D&D implementation, and that problem really comes from the huge difference between a 'reach' weapon and a 'non-reach' weapon in 3.5. It would be nice if this has been resolved in 4e, but I don't hold my breath.

Cheers

I'm not denying that chain weapons existed in history. I'm quite aware of them in fact. The spiked chain, as written in the PHB, is very different from historical chain weapons. Furthermore, the main issue I was making is that historical weapons didn't work the way spiked chains do in D&D. If they did, it would have been the only weapon in use throughout human history. It combines the benefits of reach, close fighting, two handed weapons, weapon finesse and tripping. The weapon can be used close or at reach without even an action to switch between the two.

IMO, the weapon fails from a simulationist perspective (see above) and a gamist perspective, in that it is too good. Although the worst problems are more due to the intersection of the Improved Trip feat, reach and the debilitating effects of being prone within reach of the chain of doom.

From a narrativist perspective, it fails for me because I don't want to tell any tales involving such a weapon.

All that and I still don't think that it should be removed from the PHB - just from any game I run. IMO that's the way it should be.

 

[FadedC]

New rules sets seem to always change what the "in" weapon or weapon style was. Back in 2e the way to go was two weapon fighting....there was really no reason at all to use a two handed sword. In 3e two handers became the flavor of the edition, and TWF became.....not quite as bad as 2-handers were in 2e, but still generally considered inferior in most cases. I expect 4e to shake things up as well, and who knows where spiked chains will fall if they still exist.

Like most people I don't have a problem with the weapon existing, but it did seem a little too all around good for a weapon that should be somewhat rare.

 

[Incenjucar]

It'll be all about the picks in 4E, just you wait.

 

[kennew142]

It'll be all about the picks in 4E, just you wait.

The designers have been reading GURPS?

 

[Olaf the Stout]

I had a spiked chain weilding PC in my campaign for almost 2 years. That campaign ended a couple of months ago and spiked chains do not exist in my new campaign. They just seemed too effective compared to other weapons, even if they did require a feat to use properly.

If they are in 4E I hope that they are a lot better balanced. Thematically though, I won't be sorry to see them go. They don't fit in with the types of weapons I think of when I think of an average D&D campaign world.

Olaf the Stout

 

[CleverNickName]

I guess I am a "chain hater," because I cringe every time a player buys one. I don't blame them; it is the only reach weapon that can also threaten an adjacent foe, it is finesse-able, you can trip with it, you get a disarm bonus with it. It's munch-tastic.

The problem I have is the endless dice-rolling that comes with the spiked chain...a fighter with the proper build can slow the game down quite a bit, thanks to that huge threatened area and double-weapon stuff. If you are unfortunate enough to have two or three characters in your party armed with this weapon, you are going to be pulling your hair out by the time they get to mid level.

But it looks like they are trying to fix the endless dice rolling with regard to this weapon. Attacks of opportunity are either gone or seriously reduced, and I seem to recall some mention of how a character's number of attacks per round does not increase with level. This goes a long way to making the spiked chain less annoying to me.

Otherwise, I'm afraid I'm going to have to send in the oozes and rust monsters.

 

[Kaisoku]

I'm currently playing a Spike Chain, high HP melee character in a Core Rules Only game of War of the Burning Sky.

I can honestly say, that it's the only way I can keep up with the casters and the rogue with his 5d6 sneak attack (so far). A Core Rules fighter really has no options for being able to hold his own, so yeah... I decided to powergame it and bring on the Spiked Chain.

Adding things like Enlarge and Stand Still (psionics are "in", so SRD = Core Rules in this case.. even though it's not even really a psionic feat.. whatever), mean I can actually do my job of stopping the 50 Strength creatures I'm going to be coming up against soon.

In all honesty though.. my actions in combat are fairly quick. Granted, I've written down most of my bonuses ahead of time so I can roll quickly (and the DM is aware that Trips are the flavour of the day). For the most part, the Cleric deciding on what spell to cast (or to melee instead) has taken longer time at the table than my rolling due to a Spike Chain.


What I'm getting at is... in 4e, if the ability to lock down combat as a Defender is available, then the Spike Chain's 3e "power level" will already be met, and won't need to be overblown.

I like to think that it'll be like the Polearm example... where training allows attacking adjacent foes, and the weapon itself is considered "good" for certain maneuvers (like sword is "well rounded" while axe is "offensive", etc).

 

[Cadfan]

The spiked chain's power level is essentially a fluke of the rules, specifically the rules for tripping and attacks of opportunity. If these are overhauled, the spiked chain will stop being disproportionately good.

Which is fine by me. I'd like the spiked chain if it weren't cheese. I'm fine with the flavor, I would just prefer that it were a good but not overpowered option that players pick because it is cool, rather than an overpowered option players pick for optimization purposes.

I'd be happy to have a player in my game who delights in the fun of whipping around a bladed chain, quasi-kung fu style. I just don't want to give so much rope (chain?) to the optimizers in one weapon.

 

[CleverNickName]

The spiked chain's power level is essentially a fluke of the rules, specifically the rules for tripping and attacks of opportunity. If these are overhauled, the spiked chain will stop being disproportionately good.

Have we heard any rumors about how Trip attacks will work in 4E? If I had to guess, I would suppose that they dropped AoOs and opposed rolls for Trip, Disarm, and Sunder, and instead gave a flat modifier to the target's AC. Something like a +4 bonus would be acceptable, possibly adjusted for the size of the creature or object...success means the target is tripped (or disarmed, or damaged,) and failure is just a "miss."