D&D (2024) Split the Players Handbook into two books: Lower Tiers and Upper Tiers

[d24454_modern]

By the way, there is a difference between a historically accurate Alexander the Great who is a successful military tactician versus a mythologically accurate Alexander the Great who is a Greek demigod.

The mythological Alexander is an excellent example for the Upper Tier Players Handbook. Having become king by the end of the lower tiers, he now seeks to change the known world. Eventually gaining demigod status at 16-20 and epic status at 21-24.

I don’t know why people assume all you have to do to become a god is get to level 21. Real Demigods are way stronger than that.

 

[Yaarel]

I never found high level 1e or 2e to strain, like you describe.

In 1e-2e, the inferiority of the Wizard (Magic-User) at the 1-4 tier, and the superiority of the Wizard at the 13-16 tier, are an example of "strain".

Different kinds of mechanics doing different kinds of things compared less favorably at different levels.

 

[the Jester]

In 1e-2e, the inferiority of the Wizard (Magic-User) at the 1-4 tier, and the superiority of the Wizard at the 13-16 tier, are an example of "strain".

Different kinds of mechanics doing different kinds of things compared less favorably at different levels.

That's the nature of 1e, though- it's very intentional. I guess you can call that strain if you want to. I never found it ruinous; a magic-user player, like a thief player, generally knew what they were in for and was ready for it. And remember, a high level magic-user in 1e is going to have on the order of 25-40 hit points. They're extremely vulnerable even when very high level. I think my 37th level MU had around 50 hit points. Remember, it's +1 hp per level above 11, and a max Con bonus of +2 for non-fighters.

 

[Yaarel]

I don’t know people assume all you have to do to become a god is get to level 21. Real Demigods are way stronger than that.

Becoming a god that gains polytheistic worshipers is only one of the possible ways of gaining immortality at level 17. One might become an archfey, a lich, an elemental, a construct, a supersoldier: 4e has many epic destinies to choose from. 5e can add more.

Lolth exemplifies an upper tier character. Something like at level 17 she became a demon, and at level 21 she gained the Spider domain in her "portfolio". At later level, her portfolio acquires the Trickery domain, which comes with the flavor of entangling victims within her web of lies. The community that she formed during the low tiers expanded as she further transformed it during higher tiers. Like how some spider hatchlings eat each other, her treacherous drow followers kill each other so only the strong survive.

Basic D&D has the religiously agnostic mechanic of becoming an "immortal". This is a being of cosmic power. Cultures may or may not perceive such a being as a "god". It could be a powerful nature being or like Star Trek Q or so on.

An immortal at tiers 17-20 and 21-24 can exist in the Eberron setting. Different communities would perceive such a character differently, from different cultural perspectives.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I greatly endorse this plan.

It makes it much easier to understand that low level and high level games are different animals. It keeps three nice tiers per that have a nice identity to each.

Heck you could call the first book "Dungeons & Dragons" and the second one "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons" - and it doesn't have to be just the PHB. You could do the standard 3 core books for each. Even put them both into slipcase sets. They could be thinner than current books (but not HALF as thin, because you'd want MORE material for each book, not less).

You could go pretty gonzo with the higher level stuff, too.

PLUS, you could put out the simple missions-type adventures for the first set and the more earth-shattering plotlines for the second. Heck, some SETTINGS (Like Dark Sun and Planescape) might work better as "AD&D" settings.

Everything winds up with more unique identities. I like it.

 

[Blue]

I like the concept, but I would move the bar. The first book needs material on how to play the game, what skills are, how to do combat and a bunch of stuff that the higher level book does not need. The lower level book also needs to be as low a barrier-to-entry for new players as possible. So I'd have the low level book be 1st to 8th. 4th level spells are pretty cool and are half the spell lists, there's a good runway to plan ahead, but it is leaving out a lot of things that aren't needed for new players.

8th was picked so (a) it doesn't end as soon as you get 4th level spels and the like, and so that they can include "8th level+ feats" so people can dream and drool over what their character will get at later levels.

Another thing WotC might appreciate is that since their surveys say most games go to 10-11, there's build in incentive to buy the next book for players, as opposed to just sticking with one.

BTW, there can and should be stuff in the high tier book that the low tier book doesn't need as well, but the basics of casting, combat, equipment, and all that will take up a lot of space.

 

[Aldarc]

I like the concept, but I would move the bar. The first book needs material on how to play the game, what skills are, how to do combat and a bunch of stuff that the higher level book does not need. The lower level book also needs to be as low a barrier-to-entry for new players as possible. So I'd have the low level book be 1st to 8th. 4th level spells are pretty cool and are half the spell lists, there's a good runway to plan ahead, but it is leaving out a lot of things that aren't needed for new players.

8th was picked so (a) it doesn't end as soon as you get 4th level spels and the like, and so that they can include "8th level+ feats" so people can dream and drool over what their character will get at later levels.

Another thing WotC might appreciate is that since their surveys say most games go to 10-11, there's build in incentive to buy the next book for players, as opposed to just sticking with one.

BTW, there can and should be stuff in the high tier book that the low tier book doesn't need as well, but the basics of casting, combat, equipment, and all that will take up a lot of space.

I get what you are saying, but if you want things to be "new player friendly" then 1-10 and 11-20 is up and by far easier to grok from a new player perspective than level 1-8 in a game that goes up to 20 levels.

 

[John R Davis]

Two books.
1-10 then 11-20.
Fits in more option races etc for each book then.

 

[Yaarel]

I like the concept, but I would move the bar. The first book needs material on how to play the game, what skills are, how to do combat and a bunch of stuff that the higher level book does not need. The lower level book also needs to be as low a barrier-to-entry for new players as possible. So I'd have the low level book be 1st to 8th. 4th level spells are pretty cool and are half the spell lists, there's a good runway to plan ahead, but it is leaving out a lot of things that aren't needed for new players.

I am fine with the Low Tier Players Handbook only including the tiers 1-4 and 5-8. This does keep things simpler and more manageable for new players.

At the same time, I feel the "name levels" at the Master tier, 9-12, when characters create institutions and form communities, offer tangible benefits to the D&D experience.

8th was picked so (a) it doesn't end as soon as you get 4th level spels and the like, and so that they can include "8th level+ feats" so people can dream and drool over what their character will get at later levels.

Yup. Feat choice is an important incentive for each tier.

Another thing WotC might appreciate is that since their surveys say most games go to 10-11, there's build in incentive to buy the next book for players, as opposed to just sticking with one.

BTW, there can and should be stuff in the high tier book that the low tier book doesn't need as well, but the basics of casting, combat, equipment, and all that will take up a lot of space.

I agree, the Low Tier Players Handbook needs to become the go-to book for ALL gaming rules, including ability checks, combat, social, and exploratory.



With regard to how long campaigns last, DnDBeyond published this graph in 2019.

Most campaigns happen within tiers 1-4 and 5-8, with some lingering 9-12.

About 83% of campaigns end during tiers 1-4 and 5-8.

Adding tier 9-12 increases this to 95%.

Only about 3% make it into tier 13-16, but a few diehards, 2%, make it to level 20. In other words, about 5% of campaigns use the Upper Tiers.



(Presumably, when Epic levels 21-24 become default, the 2% that stopped at 20 might press on to 24. Also presumably, if the Upper Tiers include 9-12, this would increase the usage of the Upper Tiers to about 17%.)



But if the Upper Tiers are fun, and gain support, the percentage of use can be significantly more.

 

[Malmuria]

This sounds like a great way to ensure the high levels get even less support. No thank you.

Why?

Currently, high levels in the core phb are somewhat perfunctory. Not a lot of effort is put into designing those levels, and people complain about a lack of options. Now, imagine a phb extension that went into detail about levels 11-20 in a way that offered all the things people say they want: choices, customization, advice for DMs for running high level campaigns, more high level spells, perhaps prestige classes or cross-class subclasses. That seems to me to be the opposite of lack of support.