Stacking same condition (save ends)

Sunglare

First Post
Okay help me out here guys. I thought i had these stacking rules down but I've gone brain dead.

What if a target keeps getting hit by a Deathlock wight's gravebolt one turn and then fails to make his save and then the next round the wight hits the same target with another gravebolt, does the target now have 2 immbolize conditions he has to save against?
 

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The generic rules for saves is that nothing stacks. Specific examples have included things like ongoing 5 fire damage and then hit again (any source) for 10 ongoing fire damage. In this case the 10 ongoing REPLACES the 5 since it is the same damage type. I believe the same goes for your scenario. If you are already immobilized and are hit by a new immobilize effect the new effect supercedes the old. Just like with MARKS. You can only have one mark on you at a time and any new mark REPLACES the old.

Caveat: I don't have books in front of me. There could be something in the description of said "Deathlock wight's gravebolt" that overrides the general rule, but I doubt it.
 

Now for the fire one i know that you only take the highest damage but you still have to save vs both effects. So if the target saves vs the fire 10 he will still have to roll a save for the fire 5.
 

does the target now have 2 immbolize conditions he has to save against?

You can't be immobilized twice, or suffer two instances any condition at the same time. If you're affected by a condition you already are suffering from (the second immobilize) then you take the effect with the longer remaining duration. In this case both are identical (save ends) so it doesn't make much difference. The wight's better off hitting someone else with the power.
 

The way I read it, the victim must make a saving throw against each effect that a save can end at the end of its turn. If there are multiple effects (such as multiple immobilization effects by some monster), you'll need to save multiple times each round.

Of course immobilization doesn't "stack", so in effect you'll just remain immobilized until the last effect expires.

The only exception I'm aware of to the general rule that you save separately for separate effects is the one about "the same type of ongoing damage" which states that when "effects deal ongoing damage of the same type, or if the damage has no type, only the higher number applies."

Granted, it's not very clear. It's (fortunately) not a major point since either way it's best to spread your "save ends" effects around since they overlap. Whether you decide that the duration is that of the first effect or that of the last effect to expire, the durations will overlap to a degree.
 

(save ends) is a duration. When you are effected by the same effect but twice, you apply only one and take the longest duration.

Two immobilized effects, even if the same source, or different sources, are the same effect. You apply the one with the longest duration. Given they both have the same duration, (save ends), you can pick and choose which one applies. The other one does not apply. You don't save against it, you don't keep track of it, it no longer applies.
 

Now for the fire one i know that you only take the highest damage but you still have to save vs both effects. So if the target saves vs the fire 10 he will still have to roll a save for the fire 5.

No, if he saves he's no longer taking damage. The ongoing 10 completely replaces the ongoing 5 (see page 278 of the PHB).
 

There are two issues here, and I think the confusion arises when you're mixing them up.

There is stacking of effects and there is stacking of durations.

We all agree that multiple effects doesn't stack. Being weakened for a second time doesn't make you more weakened than you are already. This also means that if you're subject to ongoing 5 fire damage twice, you still only take five points of damage. The only twist here is that if you then take ongoing 10 fire damage, then this one supersedes the ongoing 5 ones, and you take ten points of damage instead.

So far so good. This covers stacking of effects, and it's pretty clear how it works. Then we move over to stacking of durations.

PHB278 ("overlapping durations") begins by trying to make things simpler - if you're subject to the same effect twice, simply use the one with the longer duration. For effects with fixed durations this works well, because in practice this is the same as "remember both effects, only that the one with a shorter duration will never have an impact".

But this friendly simplification doesn't work for effects with a variable duration (such as "save ends").

Now, page 279 continues by saying:
"Each round, at the end of your turn, you roll a
saving throw against each effect on you. Sometimes
an effect is a single condition or one type of ongoing
damage (page 278)."

If you read this to mean there is a rule saying you only save against each type of ongoing damage once, then, well, I can't help you. This creates an odd exception, making you save only once to get rid of three different ongoing 5 fire damage.

Instead, I believe this text only whips up a few examples, and isn't intended to be read quite so literally.

This is because if you need to save separately against each ongoing 5 fire damage it means there are no exceptions and no confusion and the rules are clean and simple.

If you agree, we can then simply say you do keep track of each and every single effect that's impacting you. Let me show you how easy it becomes!

First, stacking of effects:

If you suffer from two immobilized conditions, they don't stack, but you remain immobilized until both effects go away.
If you suffer from two ongoing 5 fire damage, they don't stack, but you keep taking five fire damage until both effects go away.

Exactly the same! Now, stacking of durations:

If you suffer from two ongoing 5 fire damage, one until the end of the next turn, and the other until the end of the encounter (ouch!) they don't stack, and you take fire damage until both go away. (Yes, the PHB's "friendly" suggestion means you could forget about the one with the shorter duration - but really you can't, because a wizard could remove of the effects prematurely, and if he removed the end of encounter one, you'd still be affected by the one with the shorter duration)

If you suffer from two ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends), you will have to save against both. Their effects doesn't stack, but that doesn't mean they aren't separate effects whose durations won't need to be tracked separately.

I hope to have shown that any confusion that may have arisen is mostly due to the PHB trying to be friendly when really stringent rules language would have been much better.

And that the confusion arises from wordings in the PHB suggesting there might be strange and exotic exceptions to the general rules. If you read those two excerpts from the PHB literally, then yes, you could arrive at a complex mess of a ruling.

But if you don't read into the rules what I suspect wasn't intentional (only incompetent) the rules for stacking of effects and durations remain clean and easy.

And that really is a very convincing argument, at least for me! :)
 

No, if he saves he's no longer taking damage. The ongoing 10 completely replaces the ongoing 5 (see page 278 of the PHB).
This is a perfect example of what I mean.

Before you read that much into the rules, I suggest you carefully consider the consequences.

Are you ready for a confusing mess of a rule? If not, then I think it is much better to not read that particular rule so literally.

In essence, think "did they really mean it this way?". I know I am... :)
 

CapnZapp: The two powers don't have different durations. They have the same duration, '(Save ends)' which is explicitly defined. You save against the condition 'immobilized' and you've satisfied the condition for both powers, that being, you saved against it, and they both end.
 

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