Staff implement one-handed?

[FadedC]

The only 'evidence' for two-handed wielding comes from the weapon section of the book. How then do you explain the Halfling conundrum I posted earlier?

A quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon. Halflings cannot wield two-handed weapons, yet they are not barred in any way from wielding a staff as an implement. This suggests that, even though a Staff can be used as a quarterstaff if required, and uses those rules when doing so, it does not act as a quarterstaff when wielded as a weapon, or the Halfling would be restricted when wielding a Staff as an implement.

First off the bit about staves being quarterstaves when used as a weapon is not from the weapon section, but from both the implement section (under equipment) and the magic stave section of the PHB.

There is no question that a halfling could not use a staff as a weapon because it's too big for him. As for him using it as an implement, well if it counts as a two handed wepaon while being used as an implement then no he couldn't use it as an implement. This doesn't change anything because I am unaware of any rules to either support or deny halflings being able to use staves. I suspect this is something that rarely came up in playtest given that halfling wizards are likely to be rare.

 

[Hypersmurf]

How else would it go from being a small one handed staff to a large 2-handed weapon only when it's being used in combat?

It doesn't.

It's big enough to be used as a two-handed weapon. If you want to smack someone over the head with it, you can't do it with one hand.

But that doesn't mean you can't hold it in one hand, just as you can hold an orb or a wand in one hand.

When you wield a staff as a weapon, you treat it as a quarterstaff. You need both hands to be effective, and halflings can't do it. When you wield a staff as an implement, however, you're not trying to smack someone over the head with it. You're just channeling arcane energies through it - two hands aren't required for that. It's the same chunky six-foot piece of wood - that hasn't changed - but since leverage isn't an issue for using an implement, holding it in one hand works fine.

-Hyp.

 

[howandwhy99]

I've always used two hands, but I base things upon personal experience rather than wish-fulfilling gameworld logic. If you think you get pull it off with just one hand, don't sell yourself short.

 

[Seeker_of_Truth]

I asked

Here are the two arguments

1. When using a staff as an implement (not as a weapon) it only requires 1 hand to wield since nothing says it's different than any other implement.

2. When using a staff as an implement you must wield it with two hands because nothing says that wielding it as an implement is different than wielding it as a weapon.

Which argument is correct?

marc@custserv answered

Thank you for contacting us. If you are using a staff as an implement it does not matter if you are using it with one hand or two hands. The player can choose. If the staff is being used as a melee weapon however, two hands must be used. I hope this helps clear things up for you. Please let me know if you need anymore help!


Good Gaming!

 

[FadedC]

It doesn't.

It's big enough to be used as a two-handed weapon. If you want to smack someone over the head with it, you can't do it with one hand.

But that doesn't mean you can't hold it in one hand, just as you can hold an orb or a wand in one hand.

When you wield a staff as a weapon, you treat it as a quarterstaff. You need both hands to be effective, and halflings can't do it. When you wield a staff as an implement, however, you're not trying to smack someone over the head with it. You're just channeling arcane energies through it - two hands aren't required for that. It's the same chunky six-foot piece of wood - that hasn't changed - but since leverage isn't an issue for using an implement, holding it in one hand works fine.

-Hyp.

Yes, if you go back and read what I said, you will noticed that this is exactly what I said as well. I say in several places that the fact that it's a 2 handed quarterstaff doesn't necesarily mean it can't be used one handed as a an implement (though at the time I felt there was more evidence for no then yes). My point is just that there is no denying that it is a 2 handed quarterstaff.

Anyway we have a new custserv answer now, and I think the question was worded in a careful enough manner that I'm inclined to believe it over previous answers.

 

[Hypersmurf]

My point is just that there is no denying that it is a 2 handed quarterstaff.

Except:
Fashioned either as a quarterstaff or a walking staff, it is also imbued with
arcane enchantments so that you can channel your spells through it. Unlike other implements, a staff also functions as a melee weapon (treat it as a quarterstaff). (PHB p240)

A staff can be fashioned as a 'walking staff', rather than fashioned as a quarterstaff; nevertheless, however the staff is fashioned, it can function as a melee weapon (treated as a quarterstaff).

If a player says to me "Can my dwarf have a sharpened battle-shovel?" I can say "Sure - treat it as a battleaxe." That doesn't mean it looks like a battleaxe 'on camera'; but as far as game mechanics are concerned, it behaves as a battleaxe. For interactions with feats, powers, attack rolls, etc, it's a battleaxe in all but name.

Similarly, my wizard has a walking staff... which can be used as a two-handed simple melee weapon from the Staff group, dealing 1d8 damage with a +2 proficiency bonus.

It's treated as a two-handed quarterstaff, and can be used like a quarterstaff, but it doesn't have to actually be a quarterstaff.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

Similarly, my wizard has a walking staff... which can be used as a two-handed simple melee weapon from the Staff group, dealing 1d8 damage with a +2 proficiency bonus.

It's treated as a two-handed quarterstaff, and can be used like a quarterstaff, but it doesn't have to actually be a quarterstaff.

Of course, that may mean it's treated as a two-handed weapon for the purpose of "attacks"... and we all know how well those are defined.

Cheers, -- N

 

[FadedC]

Except:
Fashioned either as a quarterstaff or a walking staff, it is also imbued with
arcane enchantments so that you can channel your spells through it. Unlike other implements, a staff also functions as a melee weapon (treat it as a quarterstaff). (PHB p240)

A staff can be fashioned as a 'walking staff', rather than fashioned as a quarterstaff; nevertheless, however the staff is fashioned, it can function as a melee weapon (treated as a quarterstaff).

If a player says to me "Can my dwarf have a sharpened battle-shovel?" I can say "Sure - treat it as a battleaxe." That doesn't mean it looks like a battleaxe 'on camera'; but as far as game mechanics are concerned, it behaves as a battleaxe. For interactions with feats, powers, attack rolls, etc, it's a battleaxe in all but name.

Similarly, my wizard has a walking staff... which can be used as a two-handed simple melee weapon from the Staff group, dealing 1d8 damage with a +2 proficiency bonus.

It's treated as a two-handed quarterstaff, and can be used like a quarterstaff, but it doesn't have to actually be a quarterstaff.

-Hyp.

Hmmm......ok I agree with all of that although I'm not sure what your point is exactly. Your welcome to call your wizard's staff a walking staff, just like your welcome to call a quarterstaff a walking staff. It will still be a walking staff that is as long as and weighs the same as a quarterstaff in either case.

 

[toxicspirit]

First off the bit about staves being quarterstaves when used as a weapon is not from the weapon section, but from both the implement section (under equipment) and the magic stave section of the PHB.

True, but the text describing two-handed use is only in the weapon section.

There is no question that a Halfling could not use a staff as a weapon because it's too big for him. As for him using it as an implement, well if it counts as a two handed wepaon while being used as an implement then no he couldn't use it as an implement. This doesn't change anything because I am unaware of any rules to either support or deny halflings being able to use staves. I suspect this is something that rarely came up in playtest given that halfling wizards are likely to be rare.

If there is no rule denying Halflings the use of the Staff as an implement, then it is not at all ambiguous. If they could not normally use the Staff Implement, the rules would definitely mention that fact. Since the rules do not in any way bar Halflings from utilizing the Staff Implement, it must be able to be wielded as an implement in a different manner than when wielded as a weapon, or Halflings would not qualify.

I hardly think it is credible to assume that the designers overlooked barring Halflings from using the Staff Implement simply because it rarely happens, or it just didn't occur to them.

 

[FadedC]

If there is no rule denying Halflings the use of the Staff as an implement, then it is not at all ambiguous.

Actually if the staves required two hands to use as an implement then that would in fact be a rule denying them the use of staves as an implement.
There are plenty of items halflings can't use. They aren't all spelled out, except by nature of being two handed.

Regardless as I said above, I've reversed my opinion on the issue in light of the latest custserv response. So if the vague opnion of some random guy on the internet is that important to you, consider it changed .