Stalker0's Alternate Core Skill Challenge System: FINAL VERSION 1.8!

[jbear]

Just a quick question Stalker,

Are you using this system with your game or the obsidian system. I used your Obsidian system in my last game session and everybody had a ball.

Apart from that it is pretty straightforward. I guess that is where my curiosity lies looking at this finished version of a system more similar to original and at a glance a more complex system.

Which version do you prefer yourself?

 

[Stalker0]

My group prefers Obsidian. When I showed them my original system, they thought it fixed a lot of issues with the original system, but they didn't really like the concept of the original system. From that was born Obsidian. The playstyles of each meshes with different groups, for my group Obsidian was met with much more success.

 

[CapnZapp]

I think overall WOTC made some good changes to its system, but there are still flaws. Now the rules encourage players to drop out of the challenge and let the skilled people do it, which is counteractive to the original point of the challenge. Further, it has now become much easier with utility powers to autosucceed at skill checks by gaining skill bonuses.

The first point is a good one.

That is, what were they thinking when they came up with you having to count failures? The whole point was to engage everybody, not just the skill monkey! I far prefer that even the fighter who needs to roll 19 is encouraged to make an effort. Just like in your Obsidian system!

The second point; I'm not so experienced with high-level play so I can't say for sure. But I see your point. Wasn't the purpose of the entire 4E powers overhaul to make sure powers didn't became mandatory?

Don't tell me skill bonus powers have become essential! (Or rather, I guess you just did. This calls for a solution that limits the number and utility of powers in skill challenges)...

 

[Lakoda]

The utility problem is easily solved by knowing your players. If they take non-combat utility powers then reward them periodically with skill challenges that use the primary skill they can buff. But do it once in a while. As a general DM style, if you always do the same thing (even if it is to play to the players' strengths) things get predictable (and stale) and the players can more easily spec for your adventures. If you keep it pretty balanced then they will too and it won't be a big deal. No one remembers the big dumb fighter lifting the heavy object but they certainly remember how he managed to talk the gnome out of shiny - take them out of their element, just bring them back before they get frustrated. Changing the primary skill between segments is a great way to keep them on their toes.

 

[jbear]

Actually I like both of your systems.

I'm really having fun threading encounters together with skill challenges and designing ways for the party to achieve victory without being forced into battle (if they so choose).

I actually find that I can be flexible with the mechanics of the challenge depending on the situation, as long as the players know what is expected of them. i.e everyone has to run so everyone needs to roll endurance: if 4/7 succeed it counts as one success towards one of the three segments (of your obsidian system) and 6/7 counts as 2.

And still I can imagine challenges where I can see this more complex version of the system being more appropriate. My players are all new so the are accepting of everthing I put to them so I don't think they would have problems with the skill challenge mechanics differing from one challenge to another would bother them.
I'll have to sit down and study it.

Anyway, thanks again for your brilliant work and efforts. They are greatly appreciated.

 

[Suicide King]

Very cool and very useful. Thanks for creating this, it fixes a lot of issues I have with the original system.

A questions though - how do the different bonuses stack?
Let say a player is the guiding light, using a helpful skill and it's during the time of trials - does he then provide a +4 bonus? (+3 for guiding light during ToT, +1 for helpful skill)
What about using bold skills on a bold recovery roll while also spending a healing surge (during ToT, of course). Does that provide +5 in total? (+2 for bold skill on bold recovery, +3 for healing surge during ToT).

A few notes on how the different bonuses and mechanics interact might make this more immediately obvious

 

[Stalker0]

Very cool and very useful. Thanks for creating this, it fixes a lot of issues I have with the original system.

A questions though - how do the different bonuses stack?
Let say a player is the guiding light, using a helpful skill and it's during the time of trials - does he then provide a +4 bonus? (+3 for guiding light during ToT, +1 for helpful skill)
What about using bold skills on a bold recovery roll while also spending a healing surge (during ToT, of course). Does that provide +5 in total? (+2 for bold skill on bold recovery, +3 for healing surge during ToT).

A few notes on how the different bonuses and mechanics interact might make this more immediately obvious

1) There is no guiding light bonus during TOT. So it would be +2 for guiding light, +1 for helpful skill.

2) If you spend a healing surge during the TOT, you get a +3 bonus to the skill. If you are using a bold skill, that increases by 1, so +4. If its a bold recovery roll, that's another +2, so +6.

Hmm...I'll have to check my math, I don't know if I intended the system to stack that much on the one roll, but as written, that is how it works.

 

[Smeelbo]

Stalker0: You are my new hero now, and may have saved 4E for me. The combat system is good enough, and the character classes are largely geared towards combat, but the skill system as published was broken. Upon reading the mechanics and the responses here and in a few other threads, it looks like you have developed a system that is fun, playable, and solid. Thank you for putting the effort into both systems, especially the testing and modelling, which Hasbro seems negligent regarding.

I have forwarded links to your systems to our DM, we'll see how it goes. But thank you again.

Smeelbo

 

[dammitbiscuit]

Actually I like both of your systems.

And still I can imagine challenges where I can see this more complex version of the system being more appropriate.

I am a much bigger fan of Obsidian, but that is because I think as a DM and Obsidian is much easier. This system, though, certainly has a lot more interesting options to it. I guess I could see, from a player's perspective, how this feels more intricate and "challenging" and might make it feel like the stakes are higher, or at least that the road to success on the skill challenge will be a longer one with more rolls being made.

Question for jbear and others who like both stalker systems:
At what times, or for which challenges, would you run this system instead of Obsidian, and why?

 

[jbear]

I am a much bigger fan of Obsidian, but that is because I think as a DM and Obsidian is much easier. This system, though, certainly has a lot more interesting options to it. I guess I could see, from a player's perspective, how this feels more intricate and "challenging" and might make it feel like the stakes are higher, or at least that the road to success on the skill challenge will be a longer one with more rolls being made.

Question for jbear and others who like both stalker systems:
At what times, or for which challenges, would you run this system instead of Obsidian, and why?

Umm, good question. One I will have to look at more my game more closely to really come up with a good answer.

The first thing that springs to mind though, is a more one phase situation skill challenge.

With the Obsidian system its very easy to divide a series of events into the three phases of the challenge and make each part of the challenge different, i.e physical, social or mental or sometimes a mix of two kinds like social/mental because two differnet things are happening at once during that phase. This allows everyone to participate in the skill challenge and shine at different phases of it. The excitement building as a failure in the first phase makes everything that follows trickier, or vice versa.

I can see this system filling a very nice slot where the skill challenge is a one off thing, or you want the action to move more slowly. Lets say Stalker0's Negotiation with the Duke: You don't really have three phases for it but it's important enough to run a skill challenge for, or you want to make it a special moment of its own as opposed to a fast-motion 3 phase Obsidian challenge where part 1 was sneaking into the Duke's bedroom in the dead of the night and waking him without alerting the guards. Phase 2 maybe convincing him not to scream, that his life is in danger, that he's surrounded by spies and he should meet you in a certain place at a certain time to go into hiding for a while, and phase 3 being an escape a different way that you came, being chased or not depending on your success or failure during the other two phases.

If you wanted each phase to be more complicated or in depth you could just run 3 Obsidian challenges instead of the above phases, one after the other, now that I think about it.

But what if the PC's are doing something that only involves talking to the Duke, chilled out during the day, as a one off negotiation that doesn't slide so easily into a sequence of events but the favorable outcome is important, or it's something that you haven't been able to come up with an interesting way to divide into three phases.

Then you whip out this awesome system and its cool as well.

My main group is very new, 5 sessions. So in that time I've only run 3 skill challenges. Got plenty more on the horizon though as the PC's race across Faerûn trying to reach Loudwater before winter sets in and the trade routes close down. As I have imagined them, they are all Obsidian system. When they reach town to try and quietly discover the identity of Renacuajo (Tadpole), the contact they have to find to deliver a mysterious scroll. I'm going to have Loudwater attacked as per Rescue at Rivenroar adventure path. The guards will have a prisoner that the pc's may or may not interrogate. Its a one off skill challenge that doesn't flow straight into other events. So this style skill challenge perhaps fits the build better.

Also there are several ready made skill challenges offered by that adventure, as the heroes travel from the city to the villains lair for example. If you haven't had time to prepare you're own version, this system is far more similar to the official Skill system and perhaps easier to adjust the ready made challenge to on the fly.
Again I need to take a closer look with the material in front of me. I might be totally wrong.

I'm sure as my groups progress more situations will arise.

But both system are brilliant... if I knew how to give xp I would have given a stack to Stalker0 by now!!!